Morehead Scolars turning down Carolina to go elsewhere?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill
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<p>Whats up with that? They obviously didnt like Carolina for some reason.</p>

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<p>fingers typing too fast.</p>

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<p>A lot of the time there's pressure to go to the name brand schools like Harvard and the like. I know plenty of kids this year who got the Robertson and still went on to Harvard. At the same time, there are plenty of current Morehead and Robertson Scholars who did turn down your Harvards and Yales and Stanfords. I'm with you, though, I think that that's just crazy.</p>

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<p>I wouldn't call it crazy. Just because they're a Morehead/Robertson doesn't make Carolina a Harvard or a Yale...they still get the same education as everyone else at Carolina.</p>

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<p>What source are you citing or referring to?</p>

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<p>Source? Newspaper articles and anecdotal comments from friends who disclose where others are accepting offers of admission. I know also of 5 or 6 kids who turned down Carolina (not Morehead scholars however) to go to Duke.</p>

<p>But I am also of the opinion that one person's heaven is another person's hell. To each his/her own.</p>

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<p>In every Morehead class the majority of OOS winners (and many instate winners) are turning down HYPS to accept the Morehead. As cloying mentioned often times there is pressure from parents/friends to accept the acceptance to the "more elite" schools especially for in staters who have grown up with the Morehead and can't fully grasp how incredible the offering has become. In many cases familiarity can breed contempt.</p>

<p>nahmytbf</p>

<p>Your comment really shows that you don't understand the "value" of being a Morehead Scholar, or for that matter a Robertson. Taking nothing away from HYP etc because they are certainly fine schools, from our experience our S has received as fine an education as he would have had he attended Yale rather then turning them down. In fact in his major, UNC is ranked higher than HYPor S. and is consistently in the top 3 in the US.</p>

<p>He has had the opportunity to work as a TA for one of the most highly regarded profs at UNC who will also be an excellent med school referal but more importantly, has mentored him and become a friend.</p>

<p>Since 6 of his HS classmates went on to Yale and 4 to Harvard, he has a pretty good idea of the differences in the undergrad experience and education at both. His Harvard friends have had far more classes taught by TAs (he's had none actually taught by a TA) and far more classes that exceeded 50 students in a class than he has experienced at UNC.</p>

<p>The big difference though is what happens after you graduate; Morehead grads are held in the same light/esteem as those graduating at the very top of HYPS, not just any graduate. Grad and professional schools as well as employers place a great deal of value on the summer experiences and the network of over 2500 Morehead alums in every field of enterprise opens doors that are simply not there for someone just because they went to HYPS.</p>

<p>In case you think I drank the Kool aid, understand that my comments are based on first hand experiences of my S and his friends as well as that of several other Morehead grads who are three to four years older.</p>

<p>I guess I have to ask why you are on a UNC thread if you regard the education that is offered there so lowly? The IVY league is an athletic conference! There are many places one can get as good if not a better education than at many Ivies. Our S had the chance to attend Yale and chose UNC. He has NEVER regretted his decision, although he also has never let his ego think for him either.</p>

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<p>Friedokra,</p>

<p>My son is a rising sophomore and an in-state Morehead Scholar. Before the Morehead process, he was not seriously considering UNC and only viewed it as a safety. As EADAD said, a lot of in-state students tend to discount UNC because they are overly familiar with it. My son was accepted at five other out-of-state schools all ranked in the top twenty by USNews, with some offering him merit money and honors programs. However, he came to be convinced on his own with no pressure from us that the benefits of the Morehead were just too good to pass up. I have asked him several times during his freshman year if he has had any regrets, and he has said he hasn't. Almost all of his classes so far have been sufficiently challenging and interesting, and he has especially enjoyed his honors classes where the class size is small and the caliber of the professors is excellent. He is now in Africa (Ghana) having a huge adventure thanks to the Morehead. I really have never heard of anyone who has accepted the Morehead later regretting it.</p>

<p>That being said, some do turn down the scholarship and thrive with their alternate choices. An acqaintance of my son withdrew from the Morehead process two years ago to attend Yale, and has loved it. Just last month, a girl from my son's high school who had won the Morehead turned it down for a full scholarship at Duke. Go figure :-) I believe that a motivated student can take advantage of opportunities and be happy wherever they go. I also believe that UNC can provide a quality undergrad education to anyone seeking that and also provides a good base for future graduate programs in a large variety of fields.</p>

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<p>Friedokra,</p>

<p>My son is a rising sophomore and an in-state Morehead Scholar. Before the Morehead process, he was not seriously considering UNC and only viewed it as a safety. As EADAD said, a lot of in-state students tend to discount UNC because they are overly familiar with it. My son was accepted at five other out-of-state schools all ranked in the top twenty by USNews, with some offering him merit money and honors programs. However, he came to be convinced on his own with no pressure from us that the benefits of the Morehead were just too good to pass up. I have asked him several times during his freshman year if he has had any regrets, and he has said he hasn't. Almost all of his classes so far have been sufficiently challenging and interesting, and he has especially enjoyed his honors classes where the class size is small and the caliber of the professors is excellent. He is now in Africa (Ghana) having a huge adventure thanks to the Morehead. I really have never heard of anyone who has accepted the Morehead later regretting it.</p>

<p>That being said, some do turn down the scholarship and thrive with their alternate choices. An acqaintance of my son withdrew from the Morehead process two years ago to attend Yale, and has loved it. Just last month, a girl from my son's high school who had won the Morehead turned it down for a full scholarship at Duke. Go figure :-) I believe that a motivated student can take advantage of opportunities and be happy wherever they go. I also believe that UNC can provide a quality undergrad education to anyone seeking that and also provides a good base for future graduate programs in a large variety of fields.</p>

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<p>eadad,</p>

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<p>I think I do understand the "value" of being a Morehead Scholar (for this post, I will focus on the Morehead and Harvard for simplicity, rather than speaking of both the Morehead and the Robertson and all the Ivies). The Morehead scholarship provides you with a full ride + 4 summer experiences. As for the full ride, for OOS students, the Carolina Scholars, Pogue, and Davie scholarships do as well since the policy change 1+ years ago. Please note that the fact that one's educations is free does not mean that the value of one's educations increases...Morehead scholars take the exact same classes from the exact same professors as the Carolina students who pay the full sticker price. It's just like if you paid $300 for a TV versus if you won the TV for free, the value of the TV (the amount you can sell it for) doesn't change. So really the only difference "value"-wise between a Morehead and an average-Joe/Jane Carolina student is the 4 summer experiences. If you are arguing that these 4 summer experiences provide such great added benefit, does that mean that if all 15,000+ undergrads at UNC were given the choice of a) go to Harvard for free or b) go to UNC with 4 summer experiences for free, you would recommend that they all choose b)? (Again, note that I set both choices as "free" since the cost of education does not determine the value of the education.)</p>

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<p>I of course do not know your son. However, you do, so can you further elaborate as to why you think he would have received an equal educational experience? I don't think he went to Yale and then transferred to UNC so there is no direct evidence.</p>

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<p>I very rarely see rankings for undergraduate majors...what is your son's major, and where did you find these rankings?</p>

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<p>At practically any large research school, good students can become a TA/do research with highly regarded professors.</p>

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<p>Assuming that you are correct, please elaborate on this. Do you mean:
a) Moreheads are of equal caliber to top HYPS students innately. If this is true, then that means whether they went to UNC/HYPS makes little difference and this is not pertinent to the argument.</p>

<p>b) Moreheads are of equal/lower caliber to averate HYPS students to start with, and a UNC (rather than a HYPS) education makes them as good as the top HYPS students. This implies that UNC is a better school than HYPS (see my argument below about this), and thus all students should choose to go to UNC rather than HYPS.</p>

<p>But, to tell you the truth, I don't feel comfortable assuming that your statement is correct in the first place, unless you provide some evidence.</p>

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<p>Despite what your post seems to imply, I think Harvard is a better school than UNC. Yes, we can argue forever on how accurate US News rankings really are ...and why one might be better than the other in in this aspect and that, but I'll just say: Probably 99% of people in the US would answer Harvard when asked which is the better school... sure, just because a majority of the people think one way, doesn't make it correct ...but they sure must have some basis! And remember, employers are in that 99%. (On the other hand if you asked, for example, whether Tufts or UNC is better, you wouldn't get that 99%.) So yes...Harvard is a better school! Let's please stop debating over this. The real question is whether it's better to a) go to Harvard, the better school, and pay a lot of money or b) go to UNC, the not as good school, for free. And this is a hard decision to make...neither solution is "crazy".</p>

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<p>I really really hope you were kidding when you included this as support for your argument. Because the Internet is used to trade papers between universities! (it's original purpose)</p>

<p>So, I look forward to your response so that you can show me that YOU truly understand the "value" of being a Morehead Scholar, and not let your preconceptions cloud your reasoning.</p>

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<p>nahmytbf: Just read this thread. Thoughtful post, nahmytbf. Are you on the debate team, by any chance? ;)</p>

<p>Regarding "drinking the Kool Aid," see: Jonestown/Jim Jones. [From Urban Dictionary: One lasting legacy of the Jonestown tragedy is the saying, “Don’t drink the Kool-Aid.” This has come to mean, "Don’t trust any group you find to be a little on the kooky side." or "Whatever they tell you, don't believe it too strongly".]</p>

<p>I think there are plenty of people who turn down outstanding scholarships at great schools for other (equally fine) schools--for whatever reasons. I know many kids who turned down the Ivys (including Harvard!) for the Morehead or the Robertson, and still others who turned down these Scholarships to go to the Ivy's (or elsewhere). </p>

<p>While turning down a fine Scholarship like the Morehead or Robertson does seem "crazy" to me, I also know that school choice is a very personal decision. Just my opinion--but I do think you have to love the school first. I also often think (wonder if) a lot of people apply for scholarships, or allow themselves to be nominated for them, who really have no interest in the school itself. Again, I think you have to really want to go to the school first and foremost.</p>

<p>I completely agree with sdg13, though, that UNC provides a "quality undergraduate education" and excellent background for entrance into graduate programs, professional schools, or the job market.</p>

<p>friedokra: Plenty of top instate kids apply to both Duke and to UNC and are accepted to both. Just as many turn down Duke for UNC. Again, I think it's all about fit. Both these schools offer an excellent education, but they are very different in "feel." </p>

<p>eadad: I'll just add that while in-state high school students may take UNC-CH for granted (sitting in their backyard and all)-- I am 99% sure that they do, indeed, "fully grasp how incredible the offering [the Morehead] has become." I think they do know how incredible the Robertson is as well. I also know in-state students who have turned down other schools (including Ivy's) for the Carolina Scholars, too (which is not currently full freight for in-state students).</p>

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<p>Yep. I concur with pretty much all of the above. It is about feel and fit and such subjective factors. Its a competitive world out there and colleges are not immune from that competition. They spend a lot of time and money on the top kids, but in reality the ones who really benefit it seems to me are the kids in the muddled middle or even perhaps some who get in by the fingernails. To them its a life changing experience. I was in the muddled middle when I went to college a LONG time ago, and it changed my life. I then went onto graduate school and did extremely well. No, I am not a Carolina alumnus.
My D got waitlisted at Carolina with exceptional stats...though she applied regular decision and Carolina was not really where she wanted to go.....and perhaps Carolina "felt that" in her application. But I just wonder aloud why kids would turn down the Morehead. </p>

<p>Interesting.</p>

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<p>friedokra: I'm curious-- what makes you believe that a university education and/or scholarships are not "life-changing experiences" for "top" kids, too? Most of these kids are also curious, engaged, self-motivated, and have worked very hard (and continue to do so) their entire academic lives. A quality university education, as well as the experiences and opportunities that many of these scholarships offer, are most certainly "life-changing" for those top students as well. They also "really benefit" in many ways. Also, just because someone is a "top" student does not necessarily mean that he or she would be able to afford some universities, nor the opportunities (travel, in particular) that some of these scholarships offer. </p>

<p>I assume that the people who endow scholarships want to ensure that the students who are the benefactors of their generosity will take full advantage of all that's offered to them. That's why they tend to be offered to "top" students as these students have a track record for leadership, curiosity, hard work, and self-motivation. </p>

<p>Did you daughter get in off the waitlist? If not, where did she decide to go? Obviously, a lot of great universities/colleges are out there where the top students, the "muddled middle," and the students who "get in by the fingernails," can and do excel.</p>

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<p>Jack:</p>

<p>Dont put a negative connotation where one is not ellicited or suggested, please. I did NOT say that the top kids dont have a life changing event. I said that the top schools spend too much time pandering to them. There are "top" students at all kinds of schools. In NC for example, Elon regularly recruits kids with SAT scores in the top 5% or better, meaning 1400 and up. Last year, I am told, they successfully recruited 25 kids with SAT scores above 1400. What I am in favor of is sharing the wealth of top kids so to speak, spreading them around, and thus I support so called top tier schools admitting and recruiting kids with very good scores and from deeper down in the pack. My reference was merely to suggest that the middle students REALLY benefit from this. The top kids will do well and benefit no matter where they attend. I am just a proponent of reducing the neurotic fixation on "top scores" and "top students" and "top schools" that we see so much of, particularly here on CC.</p>

<p>Any good college administrator will tell you that college is not supposed to be an elitist environment and that everyone benefits, including the college, by more egalitarian admissions. </p>

<p>And for the record, there are plenty of kids with "top scores" who bomb in college because they cant adjust or perhaps they were too pampered or their scores were not indicative of their motivation or scholarship.</p>

<p>Some kids test better on exams like the SAT than other kids do, but kids with middle SAT scores often do very well in college....and in life.</p>

<p>If your kid had superb scores, I tip my hat to you and your kid. I am not slamming them or sliming them. I am just pointing out that admissions is a crap shoot to a large degree, often like a lottery, particularly at Carolina...where admissions are HIGHLY political. ( I have heard anecdotal remarks that the admissions people have discussions with high school administrators or counselors above and beyond the forms.....and that can produce good and bad results.....particularly if the counselors are aware of a students political leanings or other factors.) But I digress.</p>

<p>Carolina is a great school and I would never suggest otherwise. But it is also fair to say its a very liberal school overall, both its faculty and its student body. Why else do we joke about the "Peoples Republic of Chapel Hill?" LOL.</p>

<p>My D got into several great schools....including several in the South, some in the midwest and some in the northeast. She had scholarship money from several, and substantial grant money from others. She chose a private school in the northeast, largely because it has superb programs that she is interested in and their faculty is awesome....most of whom have Ivy League in their backgrounds and also include...believe it or not....several PhD's from Chapel Hill.</p>

<p>My D did not want to go Chapel Hill.....and was kicking and screaming about even completing an application, and perhaps that was evident to UNC. Also, her counselor knew very well that she had no interest in Chapel Hill. But be that as it may, we also know kids with lower scores who were not Honor Society, and some who have serious issues who got into Chapel Hill.</p>

<p>My D is not in the muddled middle. I was. She will excel because of her work ethic, her amazing engagement in classroom experiences (which produced some amazing recommendations from her teachers), and so forth.</p>

<p>When she was on her selected school campus, it was a "fit from the gitgo". A warm and fuzzy feeling. Though the culture shock will be there, to be sure, because its not a southern school with southern culture, she embraces it because it is different. She is not a Vandy girl either, for the record. Not one of those girls with pearls whose main objective is rushing a sorority and being an object of fancy for some rich kid. My D is very pretty, but she is a serious student. She wanted a small to medium size school....preferably a private school with a healthy environment, not a party school. And that is what she got.</p>

<p>She is delighted. And so are we.</p>

<p>I am glad you recognize that there are many, many excellent schools out there. And we were blessed to have several choices.</p>

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<p>friedokra:</p>

<p>Well, here's what you actually said, and this is the comment to which I was referring:</p>

<p>
[quote]
in reality the ones who really benefit it seems to me are the kids in the muddled middle or even perhaps some who get in by the fingernails. To them its a life changing experience.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And since you "support so called top tier schools admitting and recruiting kids with very good scores and from deeper down in the pack," I think you'll find that most public universities, including UNC, are known for having a broader range of student and are far more diverse in this regard (and others), than are most private universities.</p>

<p>You seem to have a real bias against certain schools (UNC and Vanderbilt?) and draw some pretty broad generalizations and stereotypes here. I'm not sure why.</p>

<p>At any rate, all the best to your daughter.</p>

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<p>Good Lord.</p>

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<p>two of my friends turned down the morehead for harvard and knowing them, it was DEFINITELY the right choice. they would not have fit in at all at unc and i think they recognized that. that's not to say the morehead would have been a bad experience at all. in fact, in many ways it would have been superior to harvard. but they made the right choice for them and i think these choices are worthy of our respect.</p>

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<p>Do I have a bias against UNC? I will admit its not my favorite school, but that is because I know too much about how their admissions office operates, both with respect to this years class and their previous "history." I am also not a fan of John Edwards. Nor am I a liberal or democrat. But I give UNC its due with respect to its programs and quality education...and it was ME who made my daughter apply. My spouse was ambivalent. I would never denigrate the school from an academic point of view, only its admissions policies and decisions, which again this year was fraught with EGREGIOUS errors and ommissions that made the national news, including major network news. Plus they extended the deadline again...because some of those quotas that they refuse to admit to didnt come through like they wanted.</p>

<p>Vanderbilt is an outstanding school. It also has issues with its admission policies. I know some kids who went there and most of them are fine kids. But they do have a penchant for admitting private high school kids with money. Fact. Other than that, I have enormous respect for them. I separate admissions from academia completely.</p>

<p>Broad generalizations are a part of all of us. To deny that would be disingenuous. The problem ensues when one abuses them. I dont think I have done so here, in fact, I have substantially curtailed their "application" to admissions only.</p>

<p>I dont think you would quarrel with me that UNC is a liberal school, however.</p>

<p>And as for the muddled middle, I also said, "really benefit", meaning, those kids would have a particular benefit. That does not mean nobody else would benefit, nor that others would not have a life changing experience, only that the middle kids would have particular benefit, in MY opinion.</p>

<p>You seem to have a bias against my opinions. LOL.</p>

<p>But thanks for the well wishes to my daughter. She is a fine young lady, whose academic and personal integrity is beyond reproach, who has a great work ethic, who brings great ideas to the table of academia and who is looking forward to meeting new friends and sharing viewpoints in the learning process. The school that claimed her has a gem.</p>

<p>My daughter graduated from a public high school. The ONLY objection she has to public universities is their sheer size. She wanted something smaller.</p>

<p>Some kids prefer big schools. Some kids prefer smaller schools.</p>

<p>Have a good one.</p>

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<p>friedokra- I hope your daughter enjoys Fordham! It's a great school! Best of luck to you. : )</p>

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<p>The only Ivy i'd CONSIDER going to over UNC is Penn. These people are crazy.</p>