<p>Well, I'm having a kind of situation that makes me laugh and cry at the same time. Because I don't know what to believe:
I live in Moscow, Russia, and I want to study in USA. I looked at some SAT questions: they are easy! In Moscow people have to know all this stuff to study in 9th grade, I swear. It seems to me that now, in 11th grade, we study the curriculum of Caltech or smth like that because since the beginning of USSR the educational system in Russia is made for technical sciences first, so we get an extremely strong knowlendge of physics and math here. So that makes me think that it is possible for me to pass exams for American university and get good marks to get the full fin. aid.
The only thing makes me think that it's impossible. NOBODY does that. I don't know any person in Russia who even thought about that. That makes me think that somethings wrong, that means that
a) people think that in USA the education is not good enough for them
b) people think that that is impossible to get a full fin. aid in USA
I quess the second version is more llikely. What can you say about that? Maybe there are any immigrants from Russia or former USSR to help me with that? Is this really so hard that people don't even try?</p>
<p>I'm not from the USSR, as you know, but here's a couple of tentative answers.
[quote]
It seems to me that now, in 11th grade, we study the curriculum of Caltech or smth like that because since the beginning of USSR the educational system in Russia is made for technical sciences first, so we get an extremely strong knowlendge of physics and math here.
[/quote]
It may seem to you, and you might be studying the curriculum of some intro classes, but don't generalize. You would be learning a lot of new stuff as soon as you get there. You would be skipping those intro classes, of course, but so would most of your American peers, who have done APs or the IB.</p>
<p>
[quote]
people think that in USA the education is not good enough for them
[/quote]
You must be kidding :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
people think that that is impossible to get a full fin. aid in USA
[/quote]
hmmm...that might be true, about people thinking about it, but I would not say that is the main obstacle. For people to consider the United States as an option for undergraduate study, they have to know it IS an option. How many of the people you know actually are aware of how the application process realistically looks like? I've seen a lot of very smart people think that the Americans would come after them and recruit them just 'cause their so smart. That does happen less often than you would be tempted to think.</p>
<p>Ei, privet. </p>
<p>I agree with you on the SAT being incredibly easy. I had to review stuff I learned in 7th-8th grade, which I totally forgot.</p>
<p>The main reason why people from Russia, and other countries of the former USSR, don't apply to universities in America is because a) their English is not good enough b) it's expensive c) yes, it is hard to get full financial aid. Even if you're a gold medalist in a Russian school and get an excellent SAT score, universities in America will always look after their own citizens first. The top universities like Harvard, Princeton, Yale, etc. may advertise need-blind financial aid to international students, but generally it's not true. If they had a choice between two equally qualified international candidates, but one of them asking for full financial aid and the other not asking for any at all - who do you think they will pick? Russian and American salaries may both be in dollars, but the difference in quantity is huge. Most of the middle class in Russia would be considered dead poor in America, whereas the middle class of America would have no financial problems at all if they were to live in Russia.</p>
<p>And yes, Russian universities, especially MGU, no matter what people here will tell you, are more rigorous than American universities. American universities, however, have their own advantages, such as having way smaller classes, more individualized attention, better alumni networking, resources, facilities and opportunities for research than universities in Russia, which is why they're so expensive.</p>
<p>Yes, I agree with you, Pavel. SAT Math is extremly easy (do they study it in the high school???), but I wouldn't tell this about SAT Verbal (CR and Wr now). </p>
<p>I want to study in America, but a) I have no money at all (compared to Americans)!!! Will they even believe me? b) it's difficult to gather all documents, they systems are VERY different c) they underestimate the merits of russian students d) they don't understand that we have NO opportunities for great accomplishments (especially those who don't live in Moscow) e) and yes, Russian universities are MUCH more rigorous than Americans ones, although they have many other disadvantages.</p>
<p>And last, is it really to get in American univ, if I already study in Russian univ&</p>
<p>i had a classmate who's an immigrant from bulgaria (not USSR but close enough) and she's at caltech now. </p>
<p>she was known for being good in math and science at our school. we also had a calculus teacher who graduated from belarus state university. he said math is much more seriously taken and intense in russia.</p>
<p>Hi, everyone.
I wanted to share my own experience with regards to the question posed. I am from Russia, neither from Moscow nor from St.Pt. I went to a regular school there, which I finished a couple of years ago. I am currently an undergrad at Yale. Hm...that i just so that you can compare backgrounds. </p>
<p>First off, "The only thing makes me think that it's impossible. NOBODY does that. I don't know any person in Russia who even thought about that." - this is not true. People do that, and actually a lot of people do that. You just haven't met them. For instance, you can look up this forum <a href="http://www.vreacforum.km.ru%5B/url%5D">www.vreacforum.km.ru</a>. </p>
<p>Second, do not underestimate SATs. Math is ridiculous, but you still have to practice to answer all these numerous questions in very limited time. Verbal, however, is hard. (Well, at least for average Russians, who have never actually even talked to a native speaker, let along been in the US/UK). Although, they changed SAT recently, so there is no insane "Analogies" section, so it might be much easier now.</p>
<p>Third, when Yale/Harvard, whoever esle, say they are need-blind, they mean it. "If they had a choice between two equally qualified international candidates, but one of them asking for full financial aid and the other not asking for any at all - who do you think they will pick?" - not true. First, the admission committee does not know wether you are applying for fin. aid and for how much - you send your finance documents to another office and much later. Second, with the endownments these universities have, with all the alumni willing to give money to international students (sometimes specifically from Eastern Europe/former USSR) - these schools do not have pressure to care whether to take a person with or without fin aid (which is improving all the time, btw). I am actually yet to meet an international student at Yale without financial aid. These schools (at least Yale) do give you a real opportunity to have access to all the same activities, as students from rich families have.</p>
<p>Therefore, if you think that you want to study in the US - take test, apply and see what happens. As for the choice between a russian university vs. an american university - that's one personal decision, which, i would say, should highly depends on one's study field and future goals. Comparisons like "this is more rigorous than that", or this is better than that - are naive and obsolete .</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Comparisons like "this is more rigorous than that", or this is better than that - are naive and obsolete.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Not always. Yes, American universities different, but surely their curriculum (of every school) is less strong than one of high Russian univ. That's why it's hard to do something else in Russian univ. </p>
<p>The advantages of American top schools are in their broad opportunities, but not in their curriculum, which is really weak, unreasonable, without general subjects. Of course, YOU and nobody else choose the courses, but their midterm examinations are nothing compared to Russian "сессия". It's another matter, that there is corruption and grade inflation, this is the effect of negligence.</p>
<p>"but their midterm examinations are nothing compared to Russian "сессия". It's another matter, that there is corruption and grade inflation, this is the effect of negligence."</p>
<p>This is precisely why I am saying that comparisons just should not be made. What do you mean that their midterms are nothing? Whose their? What subject? What schools? If you take Moscow or St. Pt. State Universities, then sure - they are more than comparable, more rigorous, etc. than lots and lots of American top schools. However, I have just one question - have you ever studied at an average, or at least not top 10 Russian university?? I have. Their "sessija" is not anything NEAR what I have for my finals here in terms of how much effort I have to put into studying (but then again - in Russia, it was a very good, but not top school, here in the US, it is a top one)By the way, why you compare midterms with "sessija"????? There are finals for that. Systems are just different. Period. For instance, in Russia you would have at least 3-4 days between each exam (in most cases it is more than that), whereas here, the whole finals period is a week - which makes it incredibly stressful - you can have as many as three finals in one day. Anyway, that said, if you want comparisons, let's try comparable -level schools and specific subjects, otherwise it will not work. (One more example - during the winter break I met one of my former classmates, who studies econ at an average Russian university - he knows NOTHING about econ, although is a very smart and involved guy. But his requirements for math were higher than standard major requirements at Yale. So it just differs.)
Oh, and also - corruption is not another matter. It screwed up the whole "rigorous curriculum" that the Soviet schools used to have. Since now, you do not always have to study to get your grades - this is really sad indeed. And this is why exactly such a great educational tradition, as it existed/ or let's hope still exists in Russia, is deteriorating badly....
Oh, and if I may - just a question. What do you mean that american schools do not have general subjects?? - just out of curiosity.</p>
<p>Ok, Manyzhka.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>For instance, in Russia you would have at least 3-4 days between each exam (in most cases it is more than that), whereas here, the whole finals period is a week<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>How many subjects do u have to take on your finals? What are they? Tests? Where u must choose A, b, c etc. I just don't know, sorry. Tell me. </p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>he knows NOTHING about econ, although is a very smart and involved guy. But his requirements for math were higher than standard major requirements at Yale. So it just differs.)<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Of course, Russian econ department is terrible! I want to compare my (I am AVERAGE student) knowledge of enviro studies with knowledge of freshman in harvard (in the same field). Who knows more? I doubt that freshman in Harvard knows so much. Does he know Highest Mathematics (Vyshka) etc. so much? Yes, Harvard is great, but, sorry, their curriculum is weaker.</p>
<p>Do u need to study 8 hours/day and 6 days/week. Do u have "zachet" and "dopusk"? How to get them? Or u just need to listen to ... hours (usually not many) of lectures and seminars (don't know exactly, but interested in it) and then u are supposed to be ready. </p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>corruption is not another matter. <<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>This is one of the reasons why I want to study in America, but.. in good Russian univ you anyways can get good education. It depends upon u. Nobody would make u pay, if u don't want.</p>
<p>Bogororo</p>
<p>
[quote]
people think that in USA the education is not good enough for them
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In Russia they think so! They mock at American schools and univs. Believe me. Only very few kids choose to strive and study in America, they have their own very serious reasons. But they are minority.</p>
<p>all you guys should take into account bribery, corruption and negligence with which even the top russian universities are imbibed. it is the same people who choose between talent and money the latter teach russian undergraduates. therefore, there still are some highly competitive and intelligent graduates from russian universities, but this number is nothing compared to the whole deluge of sloth, ignorance and ineptitude that not only has inundated russia, but also will corrode thoroughly the whole educational system.</p>
<p>ps you might say that some universities like mgu still give one an opportunity to get all the advantages of that veritable SOVIET education but I really doubt that in closest future Russia might esteem his degree.</p>
<p>Manyzhka, nice to see you in the forum again. I suppose you are majoring in economics, or anyway you might have some information. Do you think it`s a good idea, in case of a fail with other means of getting into college, to enroll to a community college for an associate degree, and for the last two years to transfer to a college like UC Riverside, San Diego, Davis for economics major. Do you think there would be some good career opportunities available after graduation? thanks</p>
<br>
<p>it is the same people who choose between talent and money the latter I meant admission officers</p>
<br>
<p>you know what, maybe a person entering Harvard doesn't have an equal knowledge with the person entering one of the top Russian colleges but at the end a person graduating Harvard will have a greater knowledge than that of Russian university.
Also, a lot of students in the American's top colleges are immigrants. and i believe that an average chinese immigrant knows not less than Russian student.</p>
<p>by the way i am in the 12th grade of American High School and i study AP Calculus BC which is the same thing as Highest Math in Russia.</p>
<p>A question to PavelB. What is your SAT score?</p>
<br>
<p>No, for example MGU graduate (mechanical-mathematics department) has 3 times more studying hours than Harvard one. How can one know less? The MGU graduate studies 45 hours/week, does harvard one do it? </p>
<br> [QUOTE=""]
<blockquote> <p>Also, a lot of students in the American's top colleges are immigrants. and i believe that an average chinese immigrant knows not less than Russian student.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>OK, maybe, but I knew Chinese with perfect SATs etc. etc. They even couldn't ask the teacher to leave the classroom to go to the restroom. They didn't know English. One Chinese took SAT I Physics and got 800, but he knew less than me although I never liked physics very much.</p>
<p>"No, for example MGU graduate (mechanical-mathematics department) has 3 times more studying hours than Harvard one. How can one know less? The MGU graduate studies 45 hours/week, does harvard one do it? "</p>
<p>in my opinion the hours of studiing do not have a direct relationship with the knowledge that a person have. i am sure that some of the Harvard students study no less and even more then MGU students.</p>
<p>Also, worldwide you can not compare the prestige of MGU with Harvard. When looking at the hundred top universities of the world, while Harvard is number 1, MGU is on the 89th place.</p>
<p>here is what one of the MGU students said:
Я нынешних рейтингов не видел. Но знаю, что начиная с 90-х в МГУ произошла коммерциализация образования. Уровень студентов резко упал. В моей группе был единственный человек, окончивший школу без золотой медали - это я. А сейчас там учатся те, у кого есть деньги. Поступление - за деньги. Курсовые, контрольные, рефераты, зачеты, экзамены - все за деньги. Уровень образования поддерживается только старыми кадрами , которые просто не могут преподавать плохо и желающие могут еще получить Знания. Но беда в том, что большинство приходят не за знаниями, а за Дипломом престижного ВУЗа. Вот с этим, наверное, и связан низкий рейтинг.</p>
<p>Now about the chinese students.
i think that you stereotyped them with no knowledge of english and fear before the teacher. in my school a lot of chinese students know english very well and even go to the AP English class with me. they also win various competitions in math and science. Believe me, you can find a lot of very smart people in America.</p>
<p>I agree with some of your points, but rating measures not only the strength of curriculum. Yes, Harvard is strong in ECs, flexibility, Nobel Winners etc. </p>
<p>Sadovnichiy about western system of education:</p>
<ul>
<li>Этот вопрос я тоже часто себе задаю. Действительно, наша система образования не уступит никакой другой. Она сильна своей фундаментальностью. А европейская система образования имеет совершенно другие цели. Вот у нашего профессора сын учится в Дрезденском университете. Как проходят занятия? С пяти утра студенты записываются на спецкурсы. Профессор берет только тридцать человек. Кто не успел, тот опоздал. Никаких циклов лекций там нет. Скажем, в МГУ философию начинают изучать с античных авторов, потом - средние века, новое время и так далее. А в западном университете ты можешь, не зная Аристотеля и Платона, попасть на курс новейшей философии. Там задача - сдать несколько курсов на выбор и набрать положенное число "кредитных единиц". </li>
</ul>
<p>About ratings:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>А верите ли вы в рейтинги вузов, которые время от времени появляются в печати? </p></li>
<li><p>Есть рейтинги, где МГУ в лидерах, но есть и другие, где он не на первых позициях. К примеру, для составителей так называемого шанхайского рейтинга важно количество нобелевских лауреатов, окончивших вуз, а также цитирование работ ученых в журнале Nature. В США в некоторых университетах по 50 нобелевских лауреатов. Но мы же не виноваты, что много лет разработки наших выдающихся ученых были закрыты для мира.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>This is the mistake that mericans rely on ratings (btw, MGU is 66th)</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Also, worldwide you can not compare the prestige of MGU with Harvard.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Yes, because the prestige of Russia can not be compare to prestige of USA. Nothing else.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>i am sure that some of the Harvard students study no less and even more then MGU students.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>They play football, snowballs, and sing. I am FOR it, but it doesn't change the matter. MGU students (those who really study, and there are a lot of them, me e.g.) study harder.</p>
<p>
[quote]
here is what one of the MGU students said:
Я нынешних рейтингов не видел. Но знаю, что начиная с 90-х в МГУ произошла коммерциализация образования. Уровень студентов резко упал. В моей группе был единственный человек, окончивший школу без золотой медали - это я. А сейчас там учатся те, у кого есть деньги. Поступление - за деньги. Курсовые, контрольные, рефераты, зачеты, экзамены - все за деньги. Уровень образования поддерживается только старыми кадрами , которые просто не могут преподавать плохо и желающие могут еще получить Знания. Но беда в том, что большинство приходят не за знаниями, а за Дипломом престижного ВУЗа. Вот с этим, наверное, и связан низкий рейтинг.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think this is one of those students who has bad marks, no money etc. but see the reason of this in corruption, but only not in himself. I am a student of this university, and such situation is rather seldom. Yes, there is beaurocracy, some stupid rules, too large size of classes and univ, but overall it's strong. I know many very smart kids in different departments, but not many of those who buy the education. MGU students are not so ambitious as harvard ones, they are simple, but it's not the measurement of knowledge. I am one of the best student in my department, and I consider many of my costudent stupid; but I know also Americans from HYPM - they know less! they have many other positive personal qualities, they have good future, but sorry it's not the volume of information they know.</p>
<p>Guys....let's stop useless comparisons. What we are arriving at is precisely what I said, that comparisons are naive and useless.
Veritas, your acquiantance with the US top school is as bad as, for instance, my familiraty with what is happening in MGU. We are deemed to make generalisations whithout any empiracal knowledge. So, come on. Let's discuss smth useful instead. </p>
<p>If you are interested, I will answer your questions above about studying here - but please, do not jump to quick conclusions. </p>
<p>So. You want to compare MGU with HYPM. Well, I have never studied at MGU. Neither have I had any experience with HPM. So all my answers will be based on Yale's system, which in turn is differnt from that of HYP and certainly different from MGU. </p>
<p>"How many subjects do u have to take on your finals? What are they? Tests? Where u must choose A, b, c etc. I just don't know, sorry. Tell me."
It depends on how many classes you choose. At Yale the norm is five finals. It can range from 3 to 6 (in extreme circumstances..- you need special permission to take 6 classes). What are the subjects??? That's a strange question. THere are very many classes from which you have to choose - so everyone's finals are different. Your choice is usually guarded by your major, maybe second major, general interests and distributional requirements. As for finals' format. There are no tests at Yale as far as I know. In sciences/math your final is like a big problem set - you have to write out the solution (and the way you solve it matters even more than the answer) - no multple choice whatsoever. For social sciences finals are usually comprisd of some sort of IDs - you are given concepts and have to write what this concept is, why it is important and then the major part of the final would be one-two big essays (app. 10 handwritten pages) or several shorter essays. For humanities, most often there is no formal final - one writes a "term paper" - usually around 10-20 pages - and your grade is then determined largely based on this paper + semester work. In languages there are no multiple choice answers either. You usually have to fill in the blanks, read and answer questions and write an essay. In high -level lanuge classes - there are no finals - only papers every week + long final paper. Thus, saying that the curriculum is weaker is unreasonalbe - it is not weaker - IT IS DIFFERENT!! </p>
<p>"Do u need to study 8 hours/day and 6 days/week. Do u have "zachet" and "dopusk"? How to get them? Or u just need to listen to ... hours (usually not many) of lectures and seminars (don't know exactly, but interested in it) and then u are supposed to be ready."</p>
<p>This question made me laugh when I first read it, becasue it was at like 2.30 am in the morning, when I was trying to finish my paper due next day and finally go to sleep for at least 5 and a half hours. Now, the hours in the US schools is a very funny thing. If you consider classroom hours (is that what you mean by "study" hours??) - then it seems like one has very few of them. I currently have to spend only app. 17 hours a week in the classroom. However, let's look at the study hours. I did not have a chance to sleep more than 6 hours every day for the last week. So 24-6 - say 5 for eating and miscelll. = 13. Since I do not remember myself doing anything else except for studying every day, we arrive at 13 hours of studying/day 7 days a week. The thing is that the US educational system is based largely on self-study. You have tons of readins, papers and homeworks every week, which you have to do - they are graded and your finals grade depends on that. As for "zachet" and "dopysk" - I am not sure what these are. There is no pas/fail system. All classes you take have exams, but therefore you have fewer classes overall. Apart from final exams, you have to do weekly homewroks, write papers, do reading and write a midterm (which is an exam similar to final in the middle of a semester). </p>
<p>"I want to compare my (I am AVERAGE student) knowledge of enviro studies with knowledge of freshman in harvard (in the same field). Who knows more? I doubt that freshman in Harvard knows so much. Does he know Highest Mathematics (Vyshka) etc. so much? Yes, Harvard is great, but, sorry, their curriculum is weaker."</p>
<p>The problem with such comparison is there is no average Harvard student. It is easy to say what one knows as a freshman at MGu, because everyone is taking the same, known classes. At Harvard, everyone, who has a plan to major in environmental studies would be taking different classes in freshman year. It would largeley depend on theis school preparation and how decided they are on their major. Math level would again depend on High school preparation. Some students (and I imagine there are a lot of people like that at Harvard) do indeed take the above mentioned AP Calc BC in Hugh school - which covers (maybe on a slightly less rigorous level, since it is secondary school anyway) Multivariable Calculus, which is, as far as I understand "Mat Analis" in russian universities. Then, coming to College, they can take rigorous Calculus classes straight away (normal'nij mat. analiz) + Linear algebra + Diff. equations. I am not, however, sure what you mean by Highest Math - I never studied at MGU. Certainly, a freshman would rarely take some specialized clsases in evironemntal studies right from the frehsman year. Although, maybe he will - I am not at all familiar with environmental studies program. They would be taking lots of lab classes, that's for sure. If you do not do readings, you cannot pass any exams, because they are usually based on hte readings more so than on the lectures. One more thing, you cannot "perezdat" the final - i.e cannot take it the second time, if you failed or do not like your grade or smth. There are also no oral examinations. </p>
<p>To JAck: </p>
<p>Do you think it`s a good idea, in case of a fail with other means of getting into college, to enroll to a community college for an associate degree, and for the last two years to transfer to a college like UC Riverside, San Diego, Davis for economics major. Do you think there would be some good career opportunities available after graduation? thanks</p>
<p>Um.... econ is exteremely competitive career -wise. I would be careful with Community College. You might be better off finishing your bachelor's and then applying to the US grad school in econ. Because I think that Comm. College will not look very spectacular n your CV when you apply for high -paid econ jobs. However, if you are not looking onto all those well-known Wall st. firms, or professorship, or international organization - then you might be fine. Generally UC berkley is very well-known for econ. Do not know anything about other UCs. ANd maybe I am wrong and Com. Coll is not a big deal if you graduate from a good school in the end. ...</p>
<p>Manyzhka, that's what I meant by "general subjects". Everyone in Harvard has its own studying plan, yes, but you cannot tell me that because of that they don't know something, cuz "sorry, but it's not in my curriculum". Their scope isn't that broad. I am sure only small part of harvardians would get in MGU (as only small part of MGU students would get in Harvard)</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>One more thing, you cannot "perezdat" the final - i.e cannot take it the second time, if you failed or do not like your grade or smth. There are also no oral examinations.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>That's of course the plus of American top schools. Oral exams sometimes are more difficult than written ones.</p>
<p>And I also sleep only 5 hours/day, and we also have tons of university work. Sometimes, I must read 500-page book in three days (not only read, but know everything in it), so don't think in Russia it's that easy. Americans are just too sure that their education is the best (as MGU is, though :) It's so difficult in Russian univ cuz sometimes u live in awful rooms, with no money at all, with TONS of other beaurocratic problems, with 1 hour of bus between univ and dormitory etc. etc. The life is so severe, that to study well is highly difficult. I suppose, that in Russia u studied in something like VGU (don't know, sorry) which situated in ur city.</p>