<p>“Argue what you will, but at the end of the day there is no question as to who has received a better education when you stand a West Point grad next to a top 15 university grad.”</p>
<p>An interesting perspective from a Harvard grad:</p>
<p>Just because someone mentioned how laughable the way Forbes judged which have the most “interesting and rewarding” education and how this discredits their opinion of “good” jobs after graduating, I’d like to point out who Forbes thought were the “notable” alumni from Caltech (ranked 3 in the nation on their list). Instead of mentioning any of the dozens of Nobel Prize winning scientists they list people such as “co-founder of Hotmail”, “CEO Keystream”, and “CEO Silicon Light Machines.” While yes, these people got far in life (though I’ve never heard of the last 2 companies), I think the fact that Forbes thinks they’re more notable than people that revolutionized our understanding of the world totally discredits Forbes opinion of success, “good” jobs, “rewarding” education, or any other subjective factors they used in these rankings.</p>
<p>A hard science major or engineer at a national elite could handle the rigors of the curriculum at the one of the Service Academies, but most humanities majors would falter under the core requirements which includes a year of calculus, chemistry, and physics, plus 5 engineering courses. The average course load for a cadet is 6 classes, plus phys ed (e.g. water survival), intramurals, and military duties. Breakfast is a mandatory formation (no sleeping in) and not all your weekends are free. The academies are organized and designed as leadership laboratories.</p>
<p>When looking at faculty resources, class size, and per-student spending NOBODY has them beat.</p>
<p>Please don’t forget that we are talking about UNDERGRADUATE degrees here. In the end GRADUATE programs at Harvard, MIT and Rice absolutely LOVE these kids as do the nation’s top medical schools. When I was in medical school you kind of knew your friends went to undergraduate school, but everybody knew about the academy kid. Ours did two missions on the shuttle and still works for NASA today.</p>
<p>HOW can you presume to know anything about the academic rigors at a service academy when you know absolutely nothing about them? Only 900 of my initial 1200 classmates successfully graduated from the academy due mostly to academic reasons. That’s 25% attrition!!! And as was pointed out recently, USMA provides only UNDERGRADUATE studies. The service academies are consistently in the top 5 undergraduate engineering programs that are released each year and this is strengthened by the number of national engineering competitions they win each year (usually against GRADUATE programs!).
There is absolutely no need to be sympathetic towards cadets for their service or sacrifice, because they have all volunteered for it whole-heartedly. West Point does not need to be seen as merely an adequate education for future officers of the Army. We deserve the academic respect that the IVYs seem to be so unwilling to award (if somehow that is their job) so they can justify their own outrageous tuitions. There is elitism at play here which is disallowing some to admit that maybe this Chevy Corvette can handle its own against your Maserati. I paid a little less for mine.
I do not think that ANYONE here is trying to take credit away from the IVYs. They are the top schools in this nation, no doubt. But are they the ONLY top schools in this nation? The service academies might be right there beside you. To dismiss them not only makes you look like a fool, but it also attempts to discredit thousands of individuals that have dedicated their entire lives to hard work and service to this country. Just as I will not assume to measure the intellect of an IVY-leaguer you should not assume to measure the intellect of a West Point cadet. That’s just basic people skills (you learn them through a lot of public speaking, subordinate and superior counseling, and negotiating security with Iraqi sheiks;)… Might not get a lot of that at your school…</p>
<p>This is mostly in response to the “TOP” school attendee a few posts above. You say you struggle to complete 15 credit hours a semester and spend your “precious free time” in the lab and with other academic efforts. Do you presume to think that every cadet does not STRUGGLE each and every semester? When I was not at class I was either at lab, the library, a lecture, drilling for a parade, at mandatory intramurals, or shining shoes! Try squeezing 6-8 hours of ACCOUNTABLE nightly homework into that schedule. Oh, and lights had to be out by midnight (those all-nighters must be nice). I won’t lie though, to avoid severe academic repecussions I sometimes continued to read by light of a flashlight under a blanket…
You also say that all of this struggle is in the name of being at the forefront of your field. Really, as an undergraduate (presuming you are an undergraduate, which if not the case your arguments all seem a bit irrelevant)? You have me beat because I was planning on getting at least a masters (at your school) before claiming to be a frontrunner in my decided field. That’s impressive though.
Step outside of the small box you and your parents have created for yourself and stop and think for a moment how condescending your language has been to many individuals that may have accomplished a lot more in this world than you can ever hope to. Congratulations for making it into a TOP university. Unfortunately there is a lot more to it than that.</p>
<p>I apologize to everyone who has read my last few aggressive posts but I cannot let absurdity flap in the wind like this… Good discussion and I wish you all the best of luck. I have to get back to “not this”…</p>
<p>Chriscap,
Coming out of my Washington metropolitan area high school I had a 4.0+ GPA, was student body president, and scored a 1410 on my SATs. At West Point however I constantly felt outclassed by my peers and struggled to end my time there with barely a 3.0 GPA. I am not denying the difficulty of your own program. Just realize there are other very difficult programs out there that may not look at first glance like your own. My father went to Johns Hopkins and my brother to UC Berkley, so this is not coming from someone who does not have perspective. Thank you.</p>
<p>thanks for the low blow gasdoc. it almost makes me tear up a little that you didn’t “like” the hopkins graduates… NOT. may we continue to produce some of the nation’s most dedicated and successful medical students for years to come. seriously, though, i didn’t mention where i go to school – it was irrelevant. </p>
<p>back on topic: i never claimed that west point graduates are less intelligent, inferior human beings than those from the nation’s top universities. i simply said that the quality of education available to students and the level of competition at the school is EXTREMELY unlikely to be BETTER than that which is available at the nation’s top universities. even if west point is continuously underrated, how can you argue that it is #1 in the country?</p>
<p>if you honestly believe west point is #1, there is no point in my debating this further with you. it’s easy to get hung up in new, “revolutionary” rankings and alumni testimonials, to the point that you ignore results and accomplishments. i simply don’t see the amazing results and accomplishments coming out of west point that i do from my and other similarly ranked institutions. And strangely enough, this list ranks my institution in the 170s. It’s illogical!</p>
<p>By saying this you’re basically saying that West Pointers are inferior to these “TOP” schools because they are not getting the BETTER education that the “TOP” schools provide.</p>
<p>I go to a top school myself, and honestly, I don’t care where my school is ranked or how it fares against other schools. People need to get over this. They’re JUST RANKINGS. I’m sorry there are those of you who feel a genuine sting that your school isn’t number one and West Point is. If you don’t agree with the rankings then you don’t agree with it, but you have no right to think you know it all about West Point if you’ve never even gone through what the West Point cadets have gone through. West Point is a great school. Don’t take all your anger out on West Point just because Forbes has its weird ways of ranking schools.</p>
<p>You are right Chriscap, the school YOU go to is the best in the world and you are one of our newest and brightest shining minds. Simply no one goes through what you go through to earn a grade, and we commend you. We all humbly await the huge impact you will have on our world with your undergraduate degree from (insert TOP university here). Your parents must be very proud. We West Pointers will continue to wallow in our ignorance down here on Earth.<br>
You know, for all the tremendous minds that DID go to the schools you mention, you are really trying to give them a bad name. And you should know better than to resort to name calling when you are trying to have an intelligent discussion with someone.</p>
<p>P.S. By the way you were talking I had assumed that you were attending Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, etc… But Johns Hopkins? That is an outstanding school, but for programs that you are most likely not in.</p>
<p>^ Exactly! This is part of the reason why I loathe top schools sometimes. There are people who are so full of themselves they refuse to believe any other school can top their own prestigious school.</p>
<p>Right, I’m clearly saying that I am better than everyone else in the world. You are going off on some crazy tangent, misinterpreting what I say and putting words in my mouth. God forbid I disagree with you about how Forbes ranked a university.</p>
<p>Seriously, I don’t know where you’re getting half that crap from in your last post. Did I ever claim Hopkins was the best university in the world? It ranked 15 or whatever in the last USNWR. I went there for a multitude of reasons, not because I thought there were no other better institutions out there.</p>
<p>You are way out of line with your comments. I commended the military service of West Pointers, claimed the school could be under-ranked in other reviews, claimed that it’s a good choice for MANY students with goals different from mine (though by no means inferior), BUT I DON’T AGREE IT’S THE TOP UNIVERSITY IN THE COUNTRY.</p>
<p>Deal with it. But don’t sit here acting like you’re being attacked because I have a different opinion. I by no means put myself on a pedestal because of the university I attend. But I take pride in what my parents and I have worked to achieve for my future. To go from that to being the huge ******* “elitist” you depict me as is a huge stretch.</p>
<p>Now, now, kids…anyone who wants to do a ranking gets to decide what the criteria will be. According to Forbes and USNWR’s pre-selected criteria, West Point came out #1 this year. It gives WP bragging rights for the time being. Next year, it may be someone else. Any study/report/ranking is inerrantly flawed/biased unless it is strictly numerically based (i.e. which school has highest SAT scores?). Do the IVYs have a reputation for being elitist? Of course they do. Is everyone there of that mindset? Of course not. Some of us scratch our heads and wonder why anyone would accumulate so much debt for a major such as psychology or sociology…but we know the name on the diploma is important. We know that university selection also establishes relationships that can open future doors. How about if everyone stops slinging mud long enough to gain some perspective and realize that this is just a ranking based on what two magazines chose to rank. As a West Point mom, I love that we can claim this honor. However, I really think the University of Montevallo should have made the list…</p>
<p>It seems that maybe you have read your prior postings and have successfully retracted all of your condescending language to arrive at your most recent, non-offensive, and neutral posting. Do not be surprised that people went on the defensive with some of your attempts to sound “modest”. As cjcastillo has said in the end do these rankings really matter? Do they require offensive, degrading posts from someone like yourself just because you feel slighted by them? You can say all you want about being “pro-military” and “pro-west point” but when you turn around and slam its academic credentials when in fact you know VERY little about them it is comical. It is the age old saying of “think before you speak”. West Point does not need Forbes’ validation, nor yours. It will continue to serve its roll to the nation regardless. Humility, experience, and respect… They will take you farther than any diploma.</p>
<p>BUT I DON’T AGREE IT’S THE TOP UNIVERSITY IN THE COUNTRY.</p>
<p>Chriscap, no one asked you to agree. It just is, that’s all. According to these two magazines, it just is. </p>
<p>Ameriken05, Thank you for your service. You display the maturity, honor, and integrity that I have seen by so many service academy graduates. Be safe.</p>
<p>And this is my opinion–Chriscap, do you not understand how condescending you sound? </p>
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<p>^I’d like to emphasize what mom3boys said, no one here has asked you to agree with us! We know we’ll never get you to believe that WP is not the best, but the way you come off as in each post you make is "West Point isn’t the best. I go to a great school. It’s not the best, but it’s better than West Point. And the evidence is in when you say these following things concerning West Point:</p>
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<p>That’s as condescending as it gets. If anyone’s being out of line and immature in this thread, it is YOU chriscap. Stop acting as if you’re better than West Point cadets, and we’ll “respect” your differing opinion.</p>
<p>I suppose I started off mature but I have a nasty habit of degrading into an argumentive high schooler in certain situations. I hope I haven’t made you all think West Pointers are whiny, sarcastic, fools. Thank you very much for your thoughts Mom3boys. I understand you have someone at the academy now? Well if that is the case I wish them the absolute best!<br>
As for Chriscap, I hope I did not offend you in anyway. Just please try to understand where some of the people on this post are coming from and try to expand your perspective. You go to a great school and I am sure your work ethic is top notch. There are other great schools (some of them maybe deserving more credit than they traditionally do), and others with that work ethic however. And in the end this is just one silly ranking so who really cares. Does it deserve such a negative response? No. Good luck to you…</p>
<p>What people are taking an issue with i think is a lack of recognition of the necessity implicit in most conflicts. I(and probably many others on this forum) might agree that Iraq was less than necessary, but you’re not going to find many people who don’t think there is at least some strong justification for a war on terror. </p>
<p>You’ve made a point of portraying these conflicts, which many see much justification for, as entirely unnecessary. By that token, some may take it that you(especially judging from some earlier comments) see the troops themselves as largely…well, unnecessary. They dedicate themselves to carrying out a duty and a mission that you feel is unnecessary, and one can easily extrapolate that line of thinking in order to conclude that you don’t really appreciate them very much(which, in turn, could be called “trashing”, though the use of said term may be subjective). After all, if you don’t see any justification or necessity whatsoever in their mission, how can it be said that you appreciate them?</p>