Move Over HYP. West Point Is #1.

<p>I am a graduate of West Point. I felt it necessary to post something on this discussion board after reading through some of the aggressive comments made by some users. I believe on a whole there are some severe misconceptions about West Point and the education it provides.
The idea that West Point focuses soley on military training and military focused studies is completely inaccurate. Of the average 21 credit hours I took a semester, only .5 of them were dedicated to a military science class. The other 20.5 credits focused on a broad range of subjects that you would find in most other undergraduate programs with maybe a greater focus on math and science. A majority of my instructors DID NOT have PhDs, but the overall course director for each class did. The cirriculum was directly dictated by this course director and merely taught on a very personal basis by instructors. I attended at least 7 classes a day that demanded full accountability of nightly homework and quite routinely subjected to course standardized tests. Students are made to brief their nightly studies on a daily basis in a very formal brief before their peers and instructor which demanded even greater personal accountability to studying. Once allowed to pick a major classes of course were more up to the discretion of the individual student but required no less daily accountability. In addition to small class sizes we were also routinely visited and lectured by our course directors and prestigious field intellects. With all this said, now add in the other daily demands of the student.
In addition to our 21 credit hour a semester work load we were also required to attend at least 2 formations a day in firmly pressed uniforms and spit-shined shoes (that tends to eat into studies). At 4 PM everyday we were required to attend either intramural sporting events or practice parade drill for at least 2 hours. There were also chain of command duties to include helping younger students with personal, academic, or discipline problems in much the same fashion as the regular army operates. Add to this summers completely consumed by military training and limited visits home. To make a long story short, there was always too much to do in too little time and often cadets were forced to choose which tasks they would complete and which they would fall delinquent on (always with repercussions).
I do not believe that West Point has ever really saught recognition by the public as being the top school in the nation. That is not its purpose and that is not why students choose to attend its program. To write and belittle its academic worthiness and the quality of students it attracts and produces however is completely inappropriate. Since graduating 6 of my friends/classmates have been killed in action and the rest have been on one or more combat tours in the Middle East. I myself have just recently returned from a 15-month tour in Mosul, Iraq. Perhaps instead of focusing on the usual parameters that make a great university we can maybe for once look at the overall program and experience and accept that maybe for one brief moment an academy is being publicly recognized. There’s always next year Standford…</p>

<p>US Army Captain</p>

<p>Bravo, Ameriken05! I have been just aghast at many of the posts in this thread, and you have assembled many of the thoughts I’ve had into an intelligent and literate post.</p>

<p>You wrote: “I do not believe that West Point has ever really sought recognition by the public as being the top school in the nation. That is not its purpose and that is not why students choose to attend its program.To write and belittle its academic worthiness and the quality of students it attracts and produces however is completely inappropriate.” </p>

<p>I couldn’t agree more – well said. And thank you for your service.</p>

<p>I am really happy an actual West Point student/grad has finally posted on this thread and clarified everything–</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This is exactly what I was thinking and I couldn’t have said it better than you. :)</p>

<p>Thank you sooo much, I have been reading this thread for the past several days and have been waiting for a grad to post.</p>

<p>Well said Ameriken05! Thank you for your service.</p>

<p>Ameriken05,
Thank you for your service and my deepest sympathies on the loss of your friends. Welcome home!
Ann</p>

<p>Ameriken05,</p>

<p>Thank you for saying so well what so many of us have been thinking. </p>

<p>I’m guessing from your rank and screen name you are part of the Class of 2005. If so, you entered West Point before the 9/11 attacks when you had no idea you’d spend 15 months in Iraq. Thank you for your service and welcome back.</p>

<p>“You can’t make world class engineers out of people without top level mathematical ability.”</p>

<p>Looks to me like West Point cadets are not too shabby when it comes to mathematical ability:
[USMA</a> Dean: Math Modeling Team](<a href=“http://www.dean.usma.edu/teams/math/default.cfm]USMA”>http://www.dean.usma.edu/teams/math/default.cfm)</p>

<p>it sounds like west point provides a great education to its bright students. i really can’t comment on how it compares to other universities, and i honestly don’t really care.</p>

<p>however, the orthodoxy that skepticism of the military equals abject disrespect of the military really bothers me. maybe it’s just because this is the west point board. why is it so heretical to oppose war and disapprove of some of the actions of the military?</p>

<p>“maybe it’s just because this is the west point board. why is it so heretical to oppose war and disapprove of some of the actions of the military?”</p>

<p>yes. what he said. im allowed to dislike war and the needless killing of others without trashing on the soldiers themselves.</p>

<p>Ameriken05,</p>

<p>Thanks for your thoughtful post and for your service!</p>

<p>Since I have already identified myself as an officer in the US Army I am required to be apolitical in my postings. I do not believe anyone was attacking individuals who posted on this page for not agreeing with our nation’s current foreign policy. People are entitled to their own opinion and we should respect each other for that. My only concern comes from the validity of these statements on a posting concerning the quality of education at one of the service academies. Does West Point not deserve a top spot because of political views? I fail to see the connection between assessing its education program and the current situation in the Middle East.
The real tragedy in our nation is the large gap of understanding between the military and civilian sector. People tend to associate the military with ultra-conservatism and feel there always needs to be an eye of suspicion directed towards their actions. The fact of the matter is that the military represents a true swath of the American public as a whole. Soldiers and officers come from all social and political backgrounds. We went to the same public schools, follow the same sports teams, and eat at the same McDonalds as everyone else. Every member of the armed services has to come to their own rationalization of why they are serving, especially when deployed to a combat zone. Whether it be a just cause or not (and that is for each individual to decide), I truly believe even up to the highest office that the intent is genuine and just. I do not want to sound self-righteous, and I am not going to sit here and write that the military is keeping you free, or that you owe me thanks. I admire your dissent because that is what keeps a democracy healthy. Just know that I have looked into many enemy eyes, and I realized (having gone to public schools, followed sports teams, and eaten at McDonalds) that there is an element of the world out there who have hated me since before I was even born. It was then that I realized that I belonged in body armor and holding a rifle at the low ready, wearing an American flag on my sleeve. I have handed out soccer balls to joyous underprivileged children, embraced crying women in the aftermath of a successful election, and killed those who would oppose it. Perhaps I am naive, and I understand violence should always be a last resort, but these men have made it that way. And again, I see little connection between all of this and the level of math scores at West Point.</p>

<p>^^

[quote=]
Does West Point not deserve a top spot because of political views? I fail to see the connection between assessing its education program and the current situation in the Middle East.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>that’s why i prefaced my post by saying that west point appears to provide a great education. my post was about the angry attacks toward people who expressed mixed views about the military (although they may have been off-topic). i’ve also noticed it elsewhere, like on the election and politics board.</p>

<p>i know there are a range of political views among the people in the military, so when i’m disapproving of the way the government has used the military, i’m not condemning individuals. the war in iraq, though, was ultraconservatively motivated, whether the intentions were good or not and now the military is carrying that mission out, so i am skeptical of the military as an institution…which is exactly how it should be. the military needs checks-and-balances, just like other parts of the government. that skepticism doesn’t translate to derision or disrespect.</p>

<p>your post was very nice and thoughtful, definitely representing west point well.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Well thanks Ameriken and I admire your dissent too.</p>

<p>Give me a break. Ameriken, I admire your service and sacrifice. I support the US military wholeheartedly. However, the notion that West Point is this country’s top academic institution is ridiculous and laughable.</p>

<p>21 credit hours a semester, 7 hours of class a day, two drills and required daily intramural sports? Newsflash: At the top university I attend, top students from around the world struggle to fulfill the requirements of 15 credit hours a semester, without all the other non-academic time commitments cited to be required at West Point. </p>

<p>Is there any question as to what the SOLE purpose of an institution of higher learning is? It is to educate students in their selected academic fields. And let me tell you, after 3 years at my top institution, the devotion that has been required of me and the competition I have faced have taught me more than I ever could have imagined, and simultaneously prepared me to enter my field. Meanwhile, West Point students are getting around to picking a major.</p>

<p>Like I said, I respect the military. West Point truly is a great choice for certain students. But a top academic institution it is not. I come up with fifty grand a year, suffer sleepless nights, spend my cherished free time working in a lab, and struggle to cope with 15 credits a semester at my TOP institution SO THAT I can be at the forefront of my field. And don’t pull crap about being inferior in time management or academic ability – our nation’s most selective universities don’t accept the academically inferior (and in the case that they do, those problems solve themselves after a semester or two).</p>

<p>Fact is, West Point is there for the students that seek a stable future, promising employment, and a cheap education. It is not for students that seek a TOP education. Top education requires complete devotion to that education, a selective and competitive student body, and qualified teachers. Argue what you will, but at the end of the day there is no question as to who has received a better education when you stand a West Point grad next to a top 15 university grad.</p>

<p>Again, no insult to the military intended – the American military does it’s thing well. But it’s not an academic institution.</p>

<p>I agree 100% with you chriscap. Although West Point is indeed a very GOOD university that has provided a foundation for many graduates to become successful, I do not believe that it can be said that it provides the BEST education in this nation, and I think institutions such as MIT, Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, etc. are significantly more focused and just plain better at educating. The impact and innovation at these true TOP schools is really unrivalled, and that’s really what many of us are getting at.</p>

<p>Again, from someone who has no idea what the Academic rigor and Academic opportunities are at West Point.<br>
If not for the Academic rigor and expectations how do you explain the Rhodes, Truman, Gates and Marshall Scholarship winners? How do you explain West Point alumni being accepted at top graduate institutions - MIT, Harvard and Princeton to name a few.
How do you explain their top US News ranking - top 20 Liberal Arts college; Top 5 engineering?<br>
Perhaps instead of being defensive of your TOP institution, you should do some research. with an open mind.</p>

<p>Again, I’m not not NOT saying that it’s not a GREAT school. It’s just NOT the top friggin school in the nation. That’s just ridiculous. Sure, top 20, top 10 maybe. 1? I don’t think so. Of COURSE there will be some students getting accepted to top universities. I don’t think that says as much of the institution as of the students, first off. Secondly, it would seem, then, that if getting accepted to MIT, Harvard, and Princeton is the standard against which you judge institutions, then MIT, Harvard, etc. are indeed the TRUE top institutions.</p>

<p>I explain the winners by saying it’s a great school, but NOT the TOP school in the country. The number of Rhodes scholars is again, lower than at Harvard, Princeton, AND Yale. I’m sure the other awards are similar, and the Rhodes is one of the most prestigious. My point to you, JustAMomOf4, is that I do indeed do my research, and that while West Point may indeed be a worthy institution, it is NOT the top.</p>

<p>Shall I mention the grading criteria?</p>

<p>“To our way of thinking, a good college is one that meets student needs…we focus on things which directly concern incoming students: Will my courses be interesting and rewarding? Will I get a good job after I graduate? Is it likely I will graduate in four years? Will I incur a ton of debt getting my degree?”</p>

<p>[America’s</a> Best Colleges 2009 - Forbes.com](<a href=“http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/02/colleges-university-ratings-opinions-colleges-09-intro.html]America’s”>America's Best Colleges 2009)</p>

<p>By this point, I’m sure many of you are wondering (and by many, I mean those of us who actually think an education should be graded by, you know, the education?) how “interesting and rewarding” points are assigned, among other things. The method is laughable, and I don’t really see any judging as to how good the teaching itself is. The best we have is “good job after I graduate”. After implying that graduating in more than 4 years is a negative, I really have little faith in their ability to evaluate “good” jobs. Let’s not talk about the education then. Let’s just throw off all semblance of objectivity and just pick the ones we think are “interesting”. The purpose of a university is to educate, and to say that the West Point graduates are, as a whole, more educated than Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, Stanford, and some others, cannot be supported.</p>

<p>All other things being equal I’d hire any U.S. Academy grad over any Ivy grad in a heartbeat. They’ve demonstrated to ability to survive and prosper in an intentionally made difficult, long term testing circumstance. U.S. Academies are the same as any top school in that they accept only the elite. But they differ in the fact that they only grad hard tested and worthy survivors. These schools make no accommodation for those who show any weakness of mind, body, or spirit.</p>