<p>sounds like OOS students at MSU are the cream of the crop</p>
<p>its like that at Umich too… </p>
<p>… ok not completely</p>
<p>Well, romanigypsyeyes did say she was in the honors college, so that would explain the scholarships to the OOS students. Still, I would wager that there is a large difference in credentials between OOS students at U of M and MSU.</p>
<p>When did I say I was in the HC? I just said I know a lot of people in the HC.</p>
<p>I come back from a long absence to this zombie thread resurrected? LOL</p>
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<p>I agree wholeheartedly. As a former Canadian, I had a much stronger appreciation and recognition of UMich than many of my fellow West Michiganders ;)</p>
<p>That said, the socioeconomic comments might be germane. I recently saw an article that suggested (I think) more than 60% of the families of students at U. Mich earned in excess of $250,000/year (and remember, the OOSers only represent 35% of the student body).</p>
<p>Damn… I’m poor.</p>
<p>And I STILL can’t get good financial aid</p>
<p>kmc - that 60% has to be high.</p>
<p>Nope</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/business/economy/25leonhardt.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/business/economy/25leonhardt.html</a></p>
<p>[As</a> Wealthy Fill Top Colleges, Concerns Grow Over Fairness - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/22/us/as-wealthy-fill-top-colleges-concerns-grow-over-fairness.html]As”>As Wealthy Fill Top Colleges, Concerns Grow Over Fairness - The New York Times)</p>
<p>Wayne, back in my day, close to 50% had family imcomes over $100k. That’s almost 20 years ago! I agree that 60% over $250K spounds high, but I can tell you that Michigan undergrads are among the wealthiest in the nation.</p>
<p>wayne-- I think you may be correct – the figure should be $200,000 not $250,000 and I’m not sure if the following quote means more than half or not…thought I saw it somewhere else where it was specific…but in general:
</p>
<p>When I watch my kid’s softball games, the other parents are all MSU people. They sometimes make UofM jokes. Most are along the lines of “How can you tell a guy went to UofM? Just wait a couple minutes and he’ll tell you.” Note that the joke does not discredit UofM’s academics or make any claims of Spartans being smarter than Wolverines. It merely focuses on Wolverines’ boastfulness. There are some states where being boastful is not a sin (Texas, CA, and NY come to mind). But Michigan is a state where few things are worse than being accused of being “too big for your britches.”
This is another aspect of the local culture that comes into play when picking between MSU and UofM…if people are aware of Michigan’s advantage in prestige, it is sometimes counterbalanced A BIT by its alumni’s vulnerability to being pegged as pretentious. Same with going to any other prestigious college. Like if you were from NY or Mass., and told your friends you were going to Princeton, they would probably be impressed and/or envious. Whereas in MOST parts of Michigan if you said you were going to Princeton you’d be considered a pretentious jerk who thinks he’s too good for in-state options.</p>
<p>On the first paragraph: I wouldn’t try to analytically deconstruct a stereotyping joke and turn it into a legitimate complaint against the university. Wolverines might say, “How do you get an MSU grad off your porch? Pay him for the pizza,” but I wouldn’t then try to draw a conclusion about the whole of the Michigan population disparaging the pizza industry. Keep your conclusions within reason and take jokes for what they are.</p>
<p>On the second Paragraph: There’s an idiom that goes something along the lines of, “Those who care don’t matter and those who matter don’t care.” If someone sees your admission to Michigan or Princeton or whatever as some sort of arugula-scarfing, monocle-sporting affectation instead of the product of years of hard work, then, with every ounce of your remaining tact, screw them.</p>
<p>Re para 1, are you familiar with the difference between describing a situation and evaluating it? I wasn’t saying it was right or wrong, I was saying it happens. And I’ve been bouncing around MI since Eisenhower’s first term, so it’s not like I’ve met just one or 2 UofM or MSU grads in my day (though I went to neither place). That joke reflects a LOT of the Spartans’ attitudes.</p>
<p>Para 2: Again…just reporting, not evaluating. It’s impossible to have a sane discussion if you’re going to get emotional and defensive about every comment.</p>
<p>Sure, I’m familiar. I’m not trying to levy any personal attacks here, never using the word ‘you’ nor discrediting your experienced observations, and I’m definitely not trying to attack the messenger. You reported some views, and I said why they hold no water. We’re having abstract, unemotional arguments.</p>
<p>This board unfortunately has to be a bit defensive. Michigan is the butt end of far too many misconceptions and undeserved labels, simultaneously being called a mere state school and pretentious.</p>
<p>The truth is in a narrow band. The frequenters of this board enjoy debating the exact wavelength, but with tens of thousands of students come tens of thousands of unique experiences. As a result, we usually only have valid access to quantitative data for our debates about what qualitative conclusions to reach.</p>
<p>It’s messy, but I do enjoy talking with you. Those prospective applicants and students eyeing our conversation gain more from it than the interlocutors usually do, and that’s the purpose of this forum.</p>
<p>“More members of this year’s freshman class at the University of Michigan have parents making at least $200,000 a year than have parents making less than the national median of about $53,000, according to a survey of Michigan students”</p>
<p>I get it that there are many wealthy families with students at U of M. And I get that this statement is from the class of 2003. But, having more families at over $200K than at or below $53K is entirely different than 60% over $250K. For example only, it may be that 15% are at $200K and 14% are under $53K and 71% are in between.</p>
<p>“Michigan is still not dominated by wealth as some private colleges are. Almost half of its students are from families earning less than $100,000 a year, the student survey shows.”</p>
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<p>Since this NYT article was written in 2004 (I was an undergraduate student at the time), it confirms my earlier post regarding the lack of socioeconomic diversity at Michigan. The $800/month for rent in 2004 in Ann Arbor is equivalent to $1,000+/month for rent in 2011.</p>
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<p>And it can easily be said that Spartans are the butt of many, many Wolverine jokes and the jokes reflect a LOT of the Wolverines’ attitudes. So? All it proves is that there’s a rivalry between the schools and we like to trash talk one another. </p>
<p>Also, I’m curious about people thinking you’re “too good” for instate schools because you go to Princeton. I’ve lived in numerous different places in Michigan and I’ve never encountered that attitude. <em>shrug</em></p>
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<p>I have actually found the exact attitude described in Ann Arbor. Earlier this year when I mentioned to one of my friends that I was applying to Harvard, he said "Oh, don’t be one of those arrogant people that says ‘I go to Harvard.’ " This type of person is in the definite minority among my friends; nevertheless, he does exist.</p>
<p>On a related note, undeniably present in Ann Arbor is the ability of a large group of people to simultaneously insult some for being “arrogant” (a.k.a. more talented or intelligent than the accusers) while manifesting the attitude of arrogance, superiority, entitlement, haughtiness, and disdain towards others (others that are less talented or intelligent than the accused). It’s terribly hypocritical and a double standard I’m really not too fond of at all.</p>
<p>That being said, this attitude is in no way unique to UM-Ann Arbor. In fact, I have encountered this type of hypocrisy nearly everywhere I’ve lived. But, in my experience it seems present only among those that are very very liberal democrats.</p>
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<p>Anyways, back to the original topic, I would guess that the amount of cross-admits UM loses to MSU is pretty small. While there are definitely individual situations that justify choosing MSU over UM, I would imagine that there are many more situations justifying the choice of UM over MSU. I would guess that the more popular reasons to choose MSU over UM are among the following:</p>
<ol>
<li>MSU is cheaper due to scholarships</li>
<li>A premed thinks (s)he will have a significantly higher gpa at MSU</li>
<li>MSU has some specialty unavailable at UM</li>
<li>Spartan household (or Buckeye household)</li>
</ol>
<p>Pancakes, point #2, although quite common, is a complete myth. Michigan outnumbers MSU alums 14:1 at the four top 10 Medical schools whose enrollment figures I have research, despite having 30% fewer undergrads:</p>
<p>Harvard Medical School (out of 725 Medical students):
Michigan: 23 alums (top 10 representation)
MSU: 3 alums</p>
<p>Johns Hopkins Medical School (out of 465 Medical students):
Michigan: 12 alums (top 10 representation)
MSU: 1 alum</p>
<p>Columbia Medical School (out of 630 Medical students):
Michigan: 21 alums (top 5 representation)
MSU: 2 alums</p>
<p>Michigan Medical School (out of 665 Medical students):
Michigan: 182 alums (#1 representation)
MSU: 12 alums</p>
<p>Total:
Michigan: 238
MSU: 18</p>