Music opportunities for non-conservatory students ...

College Majors Music Major
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<p>... at the conservatory-affiliated colleges? How good or bad are they at different places? Suppose, my D would get into JHU or UofRochester or Obelrlin or USC or UMich (etc.), but wouldn't get into their conservatories/schools of music by the results of audition. Would her music opportunities be better or worse there, compared to thereof at other colleges with decent music departments?</p>

<p>From what I have read at some web-sites, it might look attractive at some places even for "regular" college students. For example, it looks like at Uof Rochester people can do music major (B.A. in music) inside the college, but take free lessons at Eastman. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.rochester.edu/College/MUR/academics/generalinfo.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rochester.edu/College/MUR/academics/generalinfo.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I wonder, what would be the quality of music education in this case, how many music classes or teachers would be off-limits for non-conservatory Rochester students, what students should or should not to audition for, are those auditions any easier to pass than Eastman admission auditions?</p>

<p>What about other conservatory-affiliated institutions? There are some vague words, for example, at Peabody web-site:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/515%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/515&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Hopkins students have access to a world-class musical education and experience that they could not access at another university of such stature." </p>

<p>What would that "access" include?</p>

<p>We are also interested in the subj regarding CMU, UCS, UMich, Oberlin, BU, NYU, Indiana ...etc.</p>

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<p>DD is not majoring in music but did want to continue playing the oboe/EH, take lessons and play in an orchestra. We found the folks in the music department to be very helpful in all cases answering our questions re: the opportunities for her as a non-major. I will also add that the regular admissions folks didn't have a clue. Call or email the music departments and ask...my guess it that you will get info quickly. Re: BU...I can tell you a little about that because DS is a music student there. The music department ensembles are for music majors only. BU does have all campus ensembles (a lot of different ones) for students who are not music majors. Re: classes, I know that students outside of the major can take classes in the department (I know someone taking a theory class who is not a music major). Re: private teachers...first, non-majors do have to pay for private lessons. Also the studio teachers first deal with the music majors. I know that one of DS's roommates (a grad music student) teaches lessons to undergrad non-majors. I'm not sure how or if students who are not majoring in music can have lessons with the studio teachers in the music department.</p>

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<p>Each institute is different and it seems that it's also different for each instrument within a given institution. It is important to call each place you're interested and find out the real story.</p>

<p>Our local HS has a very highly regarded music program. I've heard from music alumni that attended schools and didn't major in music, that the opportunities for ensembles at some places was very diappointing; they played music in college that they had played in middle school band. The best one I heard was from a flute player who was told by the college orchestra conductor, "I know you're in tune, but would you please play flat like the rest of the orchestra?"</p>

<p>Bottom line is each is different so make contact early and often.</p>

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<p>That is so funny. DD has heard the same thing. The orchestra director tells her she is playing sharp. The kid's intonation is excellent...she says the rest of the orchestra is flat, and she has a tuner to prove it (because remember...the oboe tunes the orchestra). She knows now to tune a bit on the flat side. Everyone is happy, except DD. She too is finding the music less than demanding, but she actually says it is relaxing and not stressful, and that is why she enjoys her music.</p>

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<p>My son went to Eastman. Rochester does have a BA in music but they have their own faculty. I think it would be highly unlikely that a BA student would be able to take private lessons from an Eastman faculty member as all the studio spots are reserved for Eastman students. They would likely get lessons from one of the adjunct professors or one of the grad students. Basically, doing a BA in music at Rochester is NOT a back door to Eastman. </p>

<p>Rochester has a good orchestra for non music majors and for BA students, but they will not be able to play in any of the Eastman orchestras. Oberlin also has an orchestra for non music majors. I think that Oberlin may be a bit more flexible with its BA students in terms of lessons since they don't have grad students. But I would guess orchestral positions in the conservatory orchestra for non-performance majors are very hard to come by.</p>

<p>Students who are interested in pursuing music heavily but don't want to be performance majors are likely better off at schools that DON'T have conservatories. An exception to this is Lawrence University. I believe their ensembles are open to all students. Also, St. Olaf has an excellent orchestra (2 in fact) that are open to all by audition. They also require all orchestra members to take private lessons. They have to have the teachers to support this. The lessons are no additional charge.</p>

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<p>ImperialZeppelin, </p>

<p>"I know you're in tune, but would you please play flat like the rest of the orchestra?"</p>

<p>Which college? :-)</p>

<p>thumper1, </p>

<p>"DD has heard the same thing. The orchestra director tells her she is playing sharp. The kid's intonation is excellent...she says the rest of the orchestra is flat, and she has a tuner to prove it (because remember...the oboe tunes the orchestra). She knows now to tune a bit on the flat side. Everyone is happy, except DD. She too is finding the music less than demanding"</p>

<p>Was it at BU?</p>

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<p>DD does not go to BU. So no...it was NOT at BU. DS goes to BU and he has played in the all campus ensembles in the past (sometimes the music majors will do this for extra playing experience). He says the conductors of the all campus orchestra and wind ensemble are excellent. </p>

<p>One school DD considered for a long while was U of South Carolina. At that school all students can audition for all spots in all ensembles, regardless of major (or so they say...my guess is their performance majors get some lead points at the auditions). DD was told by their music adcom that she could audition for any ensemble regardless of major. She could take lessons with the faculty (but would have had to pay...majors don't have to pay). There was plenty of room in the oboe studio for her had she decided to go there. She even had a lesson with that teacher when she visited the school after acceptance. But U of South Carolina's program is not a conservatory program like Eastman or Oberlin.</p>

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<p>Not BU. A small mid-west, LAC...</p>

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<p>We just came back from a whirlwind tour of the frozen east. Ok, it's way ,way too cold out there. S talked to all of the music teachers, conductors and kids he could (many LACs and Ivys)...and sat in on some of the school symphonies. I can't speak for the Northwesterns, Oberlins, etc (next trip), but the schools that don't emphasize music really don't emphasize music. Teachers come and go. Most perform professionally and you'll have to work into their schedules. One of the ones S was interested in teaches grad students (except for one undergrad). The orchestras are good (sort of a high level youth orchestra as you'd expect). There really is no emphasis on performance. You can practice if you want and give recitals, but it's up to you. Music at most of these places (even for majors) seems to be more an an extracurricular. If you hook up with a great teacher, you can still get great instruction, but the playing opportunities just won't be there.
So, in the end, it just depends on what kind of a musical experience/training you are looking for.</p>

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<p>UMichigan has several large ensembles (including the marching band) that are for non-music majors, but the Music School enembles are generally "not recommended" for non-music majors especially since they have very rigourous rehearsal (and preparation )requirments (3x per week 2hr rehearsals). Also all require auditions, so generall Music school students occupy all the seats. (DD reports there are one or two LSA students who have succeeded,however). (Actually, the Marching band requires even more time which may be why most music majors don't participate! )
I think it would be unusual for music school professors at any of the conservatories to have time to teach non-music school students since studio spaces are generally so limited. It is more common in fact, for them to have one or two high school students who are potential future conservatory students, than for them to teach students whom they did not accept for conservatory slots.<br>
On the other hand, some top liberal arts colleges do have arrangements with conservatories for private lessons for outstanding musicians. (Princeton, for example, has some students who take private lessons at Julliard or Curtis/Temple)
Best recommendation has already been made by thumper 1: CALL THE SCHOOLS! This will be easier once the responses are in and your D is trying to choose between schools with different options. Good luck</p>

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<p>We were just at Princeton and asked whether there were students who took lessons at Julliard and Curtis. No one knew any.</p>

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<p>symphonymom, which school did you visit? Which ones of them DO emphasize music and which ones don't?</p>

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<p>It is possible to major in music at Oberlin college in a non-auditioned program (i.e., the BA in Music with the History-Theory emphasis) and take lessons with conservatory faculty. There is an audition for getting into the faculty member's studio, with the alternative being to study with a junior or senior conservatory student. Lessons for non-performance majors with conservatory faculty are generally 30 minutes per week and are worth two credit hours. With the exception of some of the most popular teachers, auditions for 30-minute lessons are less selective than the conservatory auditions. (This may not be the case for flutes since the flute faculty is very well-know and in demand.) If someone is exceptionally good, they could qualify for a full hour, 4-credit per semester lesson. Auditions for full-hour lessons are more like the level of the conservatory admissions auditions. Music majors can count up to 32 credit hours of lessons toward their degree requirements. </p>

<p>There is no charge for lessons as long as the student stays within the 16 credit per semester limit. (Double degree students can take 17 hours per semester, but cannot simultaneously work on a BM and a BA both in music.) Beyond 16 per semester, the charge is something like $900 per additional credit hour, which is a good deal more than you would expect to pay for the equivalent hours of private lessons. (30 minutes times 14 weeks in a semester is 7 hours worth of lessons; at $1800 for the two additional credits it comes out to over $250 per hour. Very few professionals command that much for private lessons.)</p>

<p>Lessons with a student do not carry academic credit but do require a small payment of something like $10 per hour.</p>

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<p>Hello symphonymom, I'm surprised by your report from Princeton, but maybe you didn't inquire in the music dept. You'd think Princeton would be pretty proud of their Naumburg prize winning violist David Carpenter, who is a current junior and studies with Roberto Diaz of Curtis. He's certainly exceptional, but he's not the only Princeton student studying music seriously. Check with the orchestra conductor who can probably give you other examples.
(<a href="http://www.naumburg.org/david-carpenter.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.naumburg.org/david-carpenter.php&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

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<p>I think it's a little broad to say which colleges "emphasize" music and which don't. They all offer music, but it depends what kind of a program a particular kid needs. Mine needs a great teacher on his instrument, a great symphony, as many brass ensembles as possible and preferably a performance major. He's always balanced music with academics and would like to continue this, but the higher up in education you go, of course, the more difficult this becomes. Most Ivies do not have performance majors. It's important to determine whether the great teacher only teaches grad students and whether he is around a lot or whether he's off concertizing. Is there a woodwind ensemble taught by a prof or is it a casual affair thrown together by students? Every student will need different things. My S is just a junior and is really asking the tough questions to figure out what balance of music and academics he wants. I think he'd do fine anywhere...he's pretty motivated. Although say "Northwestern" and he will begin to drool.
I think if you want great academics with the ability to play, the Ivies and LACs are great. If you want really great training with the ability to take some great academics, Oberlin and Northwestern may be better. My S met some great musicians last week, so it's clear self-motivation is a factor, but one can't beat a great teacher and a great studio.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the Princeton link. I know the program is terrific (which is why we were interested), but no one mentioned musicians studying at this level. Nice to know!</p>

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<p>Just a reminder to those of you who are using the private message function that you need to clear these out every so often in order to receive new PM's.</p>

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<p>For JHU, you have an option to do music minor (but no BA in music). Basically, JHU has some music classes like theory, etc. taught on the campus by faculty members from Peabody. One can also choose to be very active in the conservatory - e.g. taking a lots of classes there, but the major fallbacks are in private lessons and ensembles. </p>

<p>Private lessons count for credit for intermediate and advanced student, but I personally never heard of anyone from Hopkins studying with a conservatory faculty - if that happened before, I'm sure the chance is very slim. Hopkins students (by the way, you don't need to be a music minor to take private lessons) usually study with faculties from the prep or other outside teacher. Therefore quality of lessons varies, and you do need to pay around $200 for hour lessons per year (or semester?) - which is not terribly expensive, however. </p>

<p>In theory, Hopkins students can also participate in Peabody ensembles, but seldom was someone so good that he/she can take a spot away from a Peabody student, since the space is very limited.</p>

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<p>Duke is very good for serious string players who are not music majors. They have an excellent quartet in residence (the Ciompi) and they all teach privately. They are excellent musicians and teachers. They have a very good orchestra and good chamber music possibilities. I know a really accomplished violinist who is studying biochemistry at Duke, but doing music on the side at a very high level. He has a string quartet and is concertmaster of the orchestra. He was also invited to solo with the orchestra (Tchaikovsky VC). If my son were not going to music school and was a very strong student, he would seriously consider Duke.</p>

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<p>If your child can attend I have heard Yale undergrad (can't major in music) Harvard and Princeton have decent groups.
Here are the current teachers at Princeton. <a href="http://www.music.princeton.edu/pteachers.htm#trumpet%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.music.princeton.edu/pteachers.htm#trumpet&lt;/a>
My guess is to get lessons at Curtis or Juilliard you'd audition to become a private student, and take the train to NYC or Philly once a week, not arranged through Princeton?
At least at one point the marching band is a scramble band so you don't have to worry about ruining your embouchure.</p>