@SavsMom In this economy, no debt = winner. It’s hard for an incoming freshman to understand that and see into the future (my 18-year-old self included when I was not allowed to go to Tisch because it was too expensive). All of those programs are solid and have unique benefits. Two years ago, Missouri State was “up and coming”…many people would consider it a reach. Bob has done a phenomenal job building the program. He had such an incredible turnout this year for auditions, but I know he was incredibly selective as well. I know some people who passed many “top tier” prescreens but not Missouri State. That school was actually top on the list for both of my students because of training, quality and price. One ended up passing prescreen, the other didn’t (but he ended up getting 22 acceptances!). It is so easy to get hung up on name and reputation, but in the end…you’re going to be there with the same group of people for four years…make sure she likes what the meat of the program is…the curriculum…the opportunities.
I would love to hear more information about your daughter’s experience at Shenandoah!
@SavsMom I agree with the advice @Onette has shared. Kids do tend to overly consider reputation, it’s like name brand clothes. At the end of the day you have great choices and she’ll make a great decision. You’re almost there!!
I get the whole “name recognition” thing. The year my S was in this process he came down to Carnegie Mellon or Texas State. It took him a while to let go of the name. But he finally did and graduated from Texas State last year with no debt! On top of that he loved his training and said it was the best choice he ever made.
@SavsMom my daughter got into several schools last year- and a handful of “top tier”, but chose MSU and has loved every minute. Oklahoma City was her second choice, but we found the price way higher than expected. All in all, you can’t go wrong with any of those schools.
@SavsMom We visited Missouri State for my D&P D. I attended the parents’ info session, which was conducted by MT and dance faculty. I got basically zero D&P scoop(!), but my takeaway was that they really emphasize acting as a key element of singing and dance. The students on the panel seemed great and the faculty nurturing – the students and faculty were clearly connected. My D has a very talented friend there (MT guy from her SSTI program last summer) who loves it.
The scholarship $$ was fantastic - came with in-state tuition as an added bonus!
We have observed that they do not seem strong in the communication department…my D never did see an official artistic acceptance by email or snail mail, just a “reminder” message from the department head letting her know that she should receive department scholarship info soon. That was 2+ weeks ago and still nothing.
Just to play devil’s advocate on the ‘name brand’ thing. I actually had the opposite experience. (because you can only have one, depending on what choice you make). I actually took out the huge loans to go to the brand name schools. Several of my friends went the other way (i.e. admitted into Princeton, but went to UNC-Chapel Hill instead with no debt, and believed it was the best decision)
Of course every situation is different, but my experience was two fold. 1) Yes, the student debt sucked. Took forever to pay off, and in a field that pays pretty well. But 2) I had connections and opportunities at my disposal that none of my equally talented friends had coming out of school. They say you ‘get out’ what you ‘put in’ to education, and over time, the curve starts to even out. However, I know I wouldn’t be where I am today without the leg up I got by coming out with degrees from ‘brand name’ schools. That fortunate position is that I can now send my D to any school she wants without taking out loans of her own.
Not sure how this applies to MT, but I know many people have great stories on how they were able to achieve their dreams without succumbing to the brand names, and with no debt. And for that, I am envious. :). However, i wanted to put a counter point out there, that there is a trade off, and that most people aren’t aware. Thanks
@StanfordAI2019 As we all know, in an audition, talent and the training that went into developing that talent is what books you the job.
However… VERY often that school name on your resume and their connections can help you get that audition in the first place 
@StanfordAI2019 - I would say it’s different in the performing arts simply because (unlike academics) there are so few jobs in the field that are both well-paid and available to “step into” straight out of college. I do think name brand counts in many areas. My D is an engineer, as was my spouse, and he was very concerned that she went to a school that had a top reputation in her field and it certainly paid off. People respect her degree and that gave her a leg up when looking for work. That may also be true in the performing arts if you are going to a Yale or a CMU where the name truly gets you a first look or connects you with a group of well-placed alumni ready to help. But it won’t give you a better-paid starting “salary” - if you look at the MT/Acting graduates from CMU or Julliard or U-Mich they’re mostly working survival jobs coming out of school the same as everyone else. And taking a better-paid / longer hours non performing job brings with it a slew of complications for anyone wishing to break into the performing arts. My opinion (and I am just a parent working FAR outside the industry) is that much of a young artist’s career development will happen after they graduate. The years of auditioning and playing smaller roles / theatres can only be done if you can live cheaply and earn your living at a flexible “survival” job (or take money from the family which is only available to a few!). If you come out of school with heavy debt you will have to work more hours or take a more steady “professional” job. to pay those bills and that will influence how much time you can spend pursuing / doing the performing work you need to succeed. I do think name should be considered during the decision-making process but unless you think the name will truly open doors it should be a tie-breaker between otherwise equally loved programs. Affordability, imo, should always be a primary criterion.
So how much weight should we be putting into the financial grades for the colleges we’re looking at? Unfortunately two of the schools my D is seriously considering have low grades. Concerning with the current climate.
It is concerning @frisbee3 because a school which depends heavily on tuition income is more at risk for program or scholarship cuts if overall enrollment dips and/or Fall semester has to be done remotely. I would personally choose a “B” BFA program with a “B” financial rating over an “A” program with a “D” financial rating this year - but that’s just me and it’s all guesswork on my part. I don’t think anyone knows for sure. The talking heads say the colleges most at risk this year are small, private schools who don’t have huge endowments - the Harvards of the world and the state flagships will sail through this much easier.
I think the name brand thing is relevant but to more of a limited degree than in the imagination of a teenager and what they know or understand about debt and how much that will effect them in an unstable world of arts.
@StanfordAI2019 if you’re gunning for a career in management consulting or finance or law you can make the money back, but not in the arts for most kids. I think it comes up in context of taking on enormous debt, sometimes in the 6 figures and I’ve heard BFA kids were doing that more regularly until some of the more affordable state options started gaining great leadership. Also, I think this class is benefiting from the mistakes of the prior generation who took on debt/college at all or any costs and are struggling under debt. I’ve heard people making wiser choices the past couple years than prior years.
Good commentary. It comes down a few variables. Some known and some unknown. On one hand, we could argue that if ‘affordability’ was the governing function, than all our kids would go to a local state or community college to build a foundation, and then move to LA / NYC and try to make a living as an artist. On the other side, ‘name’ means something, or we wouldn’t all apply to CMU / Michigan / CCM, etc.
I saw something, and I can’t find it now. It said something to the effect of ~2% of all MFA drama graduates are from NYU, but they make up ~18% of all cable show actor / actress roles (or something like that). So, is that because coming out of NYU gives them an advantage? Or is it because they were ‘good enough’ to get in, so they’ll be able to use that during auditions.
In the earlier example, @MTDadandProud S was admitted into CMU but went to TSU. That’s not a big drop off. He passed on the #1 school for another Top ~#15 school; and since he was that good, he will be fine. On the other hand, like @HAHCx4 said…‘could he have gotten better opps out of the gate if he had attended CMU?’ Issue is…that we don’t really know, so hard to say.
The only argument I have is that it’s important to surround yourself with the most talent you can, so that you can grow. For example, my freshman year in college, I had 4 roommates. One is now the highest paid fashion photographer in the world. [https://johnrussophoto.com/]. One is a history professor at Princeton. One is the Managing Partner of Goldman Sachs Asia, and the last a semi-famous vocal recording artist in Sweden. I’m the biggest loser of the bunch :). I see them all once a year when we go to the Harvard vs. Yale football game, and their successes continue to push me year after year.
Wanted to just share that perspective. Although I’m a grad school alumnus, my D didn’t even apply to Northwestern [she doesn’t have the academic chops], but if she had gotten in, it wouldn’t have even been a question about whether or not she’d go.
Again, not trying to push my beliefs on this group, but it’s a POV that’s been missing a bit on these boards, so wanted to at least round it out. This group is now like our extended family, so hopefully the candor is appreciated. Thanks
Connections and alumni networks make a huge difference as well, IMO. My S graduated from Texas A&M last May and has already seen the benefit of wearing his Aggie ring at networking events – he started his own visualization business (computer animation, app development, websites, graphic design, AR/VR, etc.) right out of college and does a lot of that. We heard about the strength of the alumni network at a number of theatre department presentations, especially those that are part of larger universities. I think there needs to be a balance among name recognition, connections, and affordability, assuming the training is solid and the student is prepared professionally at the end of the program. Should my D choose the program with the lowest price after scholarships? If our budget were minimal or she were paying the cost herself, then probably yes. Should we take out significant loans to send her to a $70,000+ per year program with a top name brand? I don’t think it’s worth it in the long run, especially if she has options with slightly less name brand status that don’t require loans the size of a small house.
We are struggling with the ‘name brand’ thing as well. Trying to develop spreadsheet with top three wants with a scale to try and provide an objective view but it always comes back to how do I give up that name. Top ten BM program in the southern part of the country vs. up and coming BFA about an hour out of NYC. Either option is no debt. He has been trying to get a read on curriculum as he wants to make sure he will improve acting chops and be able to continue writing music etc., the top ten program response was “do you think we turn out so many stars without improving acting skills.” So far the spreadsheet not working!
How things have changed in 2 weeks. My D is now off the wait lists and deciding between two great programs we haven’t seen: Ball State and Rider (both BFA-MT programs). She would love to live near NYC (and proximity to Princeton sounds nice), but she also wants a “college experience” that clearly Ball State provides. Thoughts?
Fabulous @Crazy2024BFAMom ! I think you’ve got the big differences I know of right there - Ball State is more of a traditional college experience and Rider’s location is a major plus. Congratulations to her in having two great options, I know class of 2024ers at both schools who have been very happy with their experiences and training. If you have any specific questions about the programs I can reach out to those parents - just send me a PM.
Of those two, I’d say to definitely commit to Rider. AMAZING program, so selective, and great location, and so much more
@Crazy2024BFAMom My D found it helpful to do blind curriculum comparisons between schools. She discovered that not all BFA MT programs were the same! Congrats to your D-she has 2 great programs to choose from!
@Crazy2024BFAMom A big plus for Ball State is its relationship with Sutton Foster.
https://www.ballstatedaily.com/article/2018/08/news-sutton-foster-centennial