My Daughter Would Make a Great Lawyer, But....

Graduate School Law School
21

<p>It is certainly true that many lawyers were probably not the top students in their AP calculus classes. </p>

<p>However, to the extent that someone wants to be a commercial/corporate attorney, you will need to read and understand balance sheets and other financial statements, you will need to understand how complicated financial instruments work, you will need to understand the intricacies of benefit plans, vesting schedules, stock options, phantom stock, etc., and you will need to understand how to calculate complex licensing fees and royalties, in addition to a multitude of other math-based concepts. To the extent that someone wants to be a commercial litigator (and even an assistant DA might have to litigate a business case), you will have to understand and be able to unravel these same complex math-based concepts.</p>

22

<p>Spanks: The 2.8 was just from the 4 year State school. She had a 3.9 at the community college.</p>

23

<p>Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. </p>

<p>For those of you who are now in law school or are already lawyers, please tell me the reason you decided to become a lawyer. If you are a lawyer now, was this a good choice for you?</p>

24

<p>sonssecty, here are some raw numbers and my opinion:</p>

<p>There are 200 ABA accredited law schools, but one is a specialized military school, so I'll only count 199. If each school graduates 100 students each year (I think that is a very conservative estimate) then the number of graduates each year is around 20000. Even if only half of those pass the bar, that is still 10,000 new lawyers every year.</p>

<p>That would be your daughter's competition coming out of law school. That's why the school really does matter. This is from the department of labor's occupational</a> outlook handbook:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Competition for job openings should continue to be keen because of the large number of students graduating from law school each year. Graduates with superior academic records from highly regarded law schools will have the best job opportunities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>and</p>

<p>
[quote]
As in the past, some graduates may have to accept positions outside of their field of interest or for which they feel overqualified. Some recent law school graduates who have been unable to find permanent positions are turning to the growing number of temporary staffing firms that place attorneys in short-term jobs.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Mind you, at this same time your daughter is going to be facing a large amount of student loans. </p>

<p>A strong LSAT score will give your daughter a better chance of getting into a decent law school, but from things you have said it seems like she may struggle with the LSAT, too. The LSAT requires very strong logic and reasoning skills. That's why math majors and philosophy majors historically do very well. If your daughter has had a hard time with math, she may have a hard time getting a good LSAT score.</p>

<p>There are some things from you posts that don't make a lot of sense to me. You say your daughter had a 3.9 at community college and a 2.8 at state school. Is the 2.8 just her GPA from the state school, or is it the GPA combined with her community college grades? LSAC will use both to calculate her GPA, so her LSAC GPA may end up a little higher. Also, you initially said that her low GPA was related to math and that she changed her major. Did she not take any math classes when she was in community college? When did she change her major? These things are confusing to me in context.</p>

<p>With 199 law schools out there, your daughter can get into a law school. But is it really the best choice for her? Sure, some people who go to low ranked law schools end up doing well, but most don't. Is it worth it for her to take on all that debt when the odds are against her? If she wants to help people there are better and cheaper ways she can do that, that will probably be better suited to her.</p>

25

<p>
[quote]
Spanks: The 2.8 was just from the 4 year State school. She had a 3.9 at the community college.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Both GPAs will be weighted by the number of credits taken at each institution and averaged to comprise her LSDAS GPA. So, depending on how many credits your daughter took at the community college, she could be looking at something like a 3.3ish LSDAS GPA. A downward trend still looks bad, but a 3.3 or so is much better than a 2.8.</p>

26

<p>ThatPoshGirl: 3.9 - Community College. She did take math there, but it was a lower level course that did not count towards the degree. She had no problems with the science either. But the higher level math and higher level science courses are what caused her the problems. She stuck it out for a long time before she changed majors. I hope that this is more clear for you.</p>

27

<p>Honestly, with a GPA below 3.0, it will be TOUGH to get into any respectable Law school. Unless she becomes some kind of ultra-splitter with a super high LSAT for her GPA (Think 170+), she will end up in a TTT. Yeah, she can send an app to Cooley and get in without a problem, but tell her to think about the cost of law school (Unless she gets $$$) and the TTT salary she will get when she graduates. Not everyone is meant to become a lawyer, especially in this current economy. Think about it in the long run instead of being so hasty, Law school is a big commitment. Making 50-60K a year as an attorney isn't worth it.</p>

28

<p>Seph, Define "respectable." Seriously, Someone with below a 3.0--and we now know that doesn't include the OP's D--doesn't need a 170 to get into a "respectable" law school--at least the way I define that term. </p>

<p>Put a 2.8 and a 155 LSAT into the <a href="http://www.lsac.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.lsac.org&lt;/a>. gizmo and you'll find out that Cooley isn't the only option. And if she can pull a LSAT above a 160--still a long way from a 170--she'll have a lot more options.</p>

<p>So, lets not go overboard here. </p>

<p>I don't disagree with the central thrust of your message--not everyone SHOULD go to law school and if you aren't heading to a top law school, you should probably be more cautious about taking on a lot of debt. But for some people, making $50,000-$60,000 in a job they enjoy would be fine.</p>

29

<p>I'm shaking my head that a poster would turn up his/her nose at entry-level professional jobs that pay $50K-$60K. </p>

<p>If you want Big City and Big Law, your salary requirements are going to be higher. Small City or Town, and mid-to small firms will pay less. Attorneys in these locations perform necessary professional services. Someone needs to write wills, handle auto accidents, review closing documents for homebuyers, handle John Doe's DWI and help the local tool & die company incorporate. Someone needs to review HUD housing or USPS construction documents and assist claimants with EEOC charges for the government. JAG lawyers may handle everything from tenant leases to criminal charges. Government jobs will pay less, with a quality-of-life trade-off. Clerking jobs may not pay as well as big law jobs. The profession offers a wide range of entry level salaries and opportunities to learn to be a lawyer. </p>

<p>Not every lawyer wants to do international mergers & acquisitions, become a Judge, etc. In short, being a lawyer is about much, much more than getting through law school to reach that six figure salary! What is missing from the advice on this thread, is the heart and soul of the profession. </p>

<p>Sure, it's clear that a $60K salary may not pay for $150K loans...but some schools offer programs that will help with loan forgiveness for a few years of public interest work, or lower tier schools may offer opportunities for financial aid. OP didn't ask about financing law school. Many lower tier schools are very highly regarded in their state, once you get out of the New York, Chicago, Boston and CA markets.</p>

<p>OP - as a 30 yr+ lawyer working for a Fortune 500, who also has Big City law firm experience, I recommend that your D study hard for the LSAT and get a score. Take that score to the LSAC site and look at schools to see whether her GPA and LSAT score will get her into a school that she'd consider. Get recommendations from college professors on file with the LSAC. In the meantime, also let her consider working for a year or two to save money and perhaps to strengthen her soft factors. If she wants to apply to schools, have her visit them and sit in on a class or two. See if she is driven to do any of this herself, or if it's parental encouragement that is pushing her to consider grad school. Law school and entry level legal jobs are miserable enough that you have to really, really want to be a lawyer to put yourself through this, even without addressing the debt.</p>

<p>And tell D not to turn her nose up at a $50K-$60K legal job if that job will provide great experiences and training.</p>

30

<p>Sonssecty,</p>

<p>I first decided I wanted to be a lawyer when I read in an encyclopedia article as a child that most U.S. presidents had originally lawyers by profession.</p>

<p>My algorithm for choosing the profession may have been questionable, but it turned out to have been a good choice for me. I spent twelve years litigating, which grew wearisome, but have worked for another twelve as an in-house transactional attorney, which I still find delightful. I love to read and write, and enjoy thinking and talking about the types of problems that come my way at work.</p>

31

<p>Greybeard - We both posted at the same moment. As always, you are the voice of reason (and respond to the poster's actual question!). I got off track a bit, since I find myself getting frustrated over the arrogance of students who appear to believe that Big Law and six figure salaries are the only sensible reasons to become lawyers. Whoops, I'm doing it again.</p>

<p>Anyway, to respond to poster's question, I went to law school because (a) there were no jobs in my undergrad major at the time, so I considered grad school; (b) my perception of legal work was based on limited experience in summer jobs and watching Perry Mason on tv; (c) I respected the high ethical standards of the profession; and (c) I wanted to be able to support myself eventually. </p>

<p>I have always worked very long hours and legal work is very stressful, but I've also had a wonderful and somewhat high-profile career. I admit that I went to a 3T law school. My career successes came from hard work and some luck, and not because of my 3T school. My own kid will be going to a 3T or 2T law school next Fall, with a goal of working in a small city (not Big Law!).</p>

32

<p>Neonzeus and Greybeard: Thank you both for great insight and answers. I'm gonna put this issue to rest for myself right now as I have received a sufficient amount of information.</p>