My unbalanced daughter...what next?

Parents Forum
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<p>As expected, my daughter did significantly better on her ACTs than on her SATs (her ACT composite converts to about 200 points better than her actual SAT score). As expected, she did well on English and reading, not so well on math (science was better than math, not as good as English or reading). What was unexpected was the degree to which she did well on the English/reading, which makes the lesser math/science scores particularly painful, since they drag down her composite. </p>

<p>The math score is unlikely to improve, although I do think it's possible that the science score could. My daughter has never been a math "type", and she hasn't been helped by a substandard math education from 7th grade on. (And I'm not just making excuses...the entire math department at her school was fired at the end of the school year because of the problems the students have been experiencing). What she has accomplished in math has been the result of tutoring and lots of long nights working on homework, but what I see is a kid who still has no intuitive understanding of math.</p>

<p>Her verbal-type scores for the ACT are in the 99th percentile nationwide, so my question is: should my daughter retake the ACT? My answer to her so far is that we'll wait until her writing score is available and then decide (yes, I'm buying time :)) She could continue to self-prep for the ACTs, but she's not going to be home enough this summer for a math tutor to be a realistic option. But I'm really to the point of saying, "Enough is enough" and just having her concentrate on her essays and her audition materials. Any advice/suggestions would be welcome.</p>

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<p>Do the current scores place her in the range at the schools that she is interested in applying? Does she also have to take any SATII's in addition to tuning in the ACT (you may have th check the schools admissions requirements as many of them are changing for the class of 2010. </p>

<p>whatever you decide, the beauty of the ACT is that score choice is still available so she will be able to choose which test results she wants to release.</p>

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<p>You may want to have your daughter take the ACT again, because you can pick the best score to send. It couldn't hurt.</p>

<p>I am interested in other replies, because I also have a Mezzo, who can't do math.</p>

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<p>Sybbie makes a good point. The ACT score choice makes this an easier question. I would suggest some self-studying on the ACT math. I think the ACT/SAT Forum has some good suggestions (if you wade through all the messages) for self-study materials. I know she won't like it, but IMHO no harm in giving the ACT another shot. If you don't like the result, don't report it.</p>

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<p>Does she want to take the test again, is she willing to do some studying/prep? Score choice does make it attractive, and the Science questions are a little odd, in that they are not exactly what many students think they will be, so familiarity and practice may well improve that subscore. Math, I don't know, it is supposed to be the most "preppable" subject, but the ACT is more of a curriculum based test, and to replace inadequate preparation - I don't know. On the other hand, with score choice she has little to lose except a morning of her time and $X.
Another thought, will she be using summer time to prep that she might otherwise use for essays? Can she pull her composite up to a level that will earn more merit money? Other considerations to throw into the mix.</p>

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<p>not sure if this helps, but i do know colleges place more weight on high verbal scores... which doesn't help me :-/ 800 M 710 V</p>

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<p>If the math scores are too low, questions might be raised about handling music theory. Some kids are intuitive about math, others need to be carefully taught. It seems very important to have math activity very much "fore-brain" in the time leading up to the tests. Taking a prep course helps, but probably once the scoring and pacing is understood, getting one of those self-study SAT/ACT books, which explain why which answer is right, and doing practice tests daily leading up to the retake will probably do as well. If she has taken math past Algebra II and gotten at least a B in all her courses, it is less problematic, unless she is looking at a ivy or selective LAC. </p>

<p>Theory tests are a big part of many audition days, and if that background is not strong and the math scores are low, there may be a question mark about the ability to handle the work. Many singers have fatal trouble with theory. Juilliard's call back for singers is a theory test, clearly a defining issue. </p>

<p>If verbal test scores are good and essays are decent, at a conservatory the actual application matters less than the audition. If she is shooting for an IVY, those essays do need the extra work, too.</p>

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<p>I feel your pain mezzomom. Here's where I am with the whole standardized test thing. DONE. She bought the books, did the classes, did the prep and took the tests multiple times. Basta.</p>

<p>My D's scores went down overall (some sections went up, some down) on both the SAT and ACT. Two sittings combined SAT, she's got a 2080. DONE. ACT got worse on this sitting composite from 29 to 28. DONE. It is what it is. </p>

<p>My advice to my daughter is STOP putting energy, focus and money into this activity. Put the focus on deepening her ECs in her passion areas and trust her intentions.</p>

<p>She is (fortunately) a URM so with her school rank, record, GPA, app essays, and recommendations, she will probably get into most on her list despite the fact that she doesn't test well. (Please, before anyone goes off about affirmative action, D is ranked #1/264, GPA 4.6, all AP courses available, brilliant and thoughtful writer, blah blah.) </p>

<p>MezzoMom, our daughters demonstrate exactly what is wrong with the whole ETS scam. They are hard-working, intelligent women who have trouble looking at things in a black&white, disconnected, rapid fire, multiple choice way, Congratulations to them!</p>

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<p>YoMama, great post</p>

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<p>So she won't be a CPA. Neither was Maria Callas.</p>

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<p>Welcome Yomama! Thanks for your wisdom!</p>

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<p>My d was also unbalanced with verbal/math scores. When she was applying she looked at schools that had higher math scores vs. verbal scores, that way she looked attractive to them to boost their verbals scores. Good Luck and your D will do fine.</p>

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<p>I, too, had poor math education (though some of that was indeed my fault and not the staff's!). I took the ACT and scored about 100 points better on it than the SAT when converted. I, too, scored 99th percentile in English/RC, and did pretty poorly comparatively in math and SR (and again, better in SR than math).</p>

<p>Let's use numbers here; it helps when I tell the rest. I received a 32 composite (which was the lowest 99th percentile): 34 English, 36 Reading, 28 Math, 28 Science Reasoning. </p>

<p>I figured I could study and hopefully bring up the math and science reasoning scores. So I took it again.</p>

<p>My second set of scores? Identical composite. Identical English and Reading. Identical math, too, unfortunately. Slightly higher SR (31), but not enough to bump my composite. </p>

<p>I think it may not be worth it to retake the scores unless there were extentuating circumstances at the first test. If she studied for the first set, there isn't going to be much change in the second set, except maybe down a little because of the randomness of some correctness (ie, guessing worked well last time, but not this time). </p>

<p>If you feel like she could make some improvement (maybe she just learned a new math trick that could help her finish the algebra questions more accurately and quickly), there is no harm (save maybe the fees!) in taking it again because you only send ONE score per fee.</p>

<p>Best of luck!</p>

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<p>mezzomom, D is the reverse. She took the ACT and aced the math (36) , did very well on the reading (34), did well on the english (31), tanked the science (26) badly enough to end up with a composite 32. Had she made a 33 , she'd be done (she says). A 32 puts her at the 75 percentile or higher at all her schools except one . She also tanked the essay badly enough to make her combined essay/english a 29. D hates the essay section on both tests. Her timed essays are not bad. They are just not good. Soooo, I'm wondering whether she should just hold with her 2160 SAT and 32 ACT and send both of those. I'm thinking of advising one more ACT and that's it. I don't believe D will be taking any SAT II's as she would have to self study a science course as our school offers one AP science course and it's limited to seniors. Way too much hassle for a lottery school. Those schools that require them will just miss out .LOL.</p>

<p>I'd say one more ACT and then done for your D.</p>

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<p>Just one more thing to throw into the mix. My daughter tanked the ACT essay - score was 7 - but scored 11 on the SAT essay. I'm pretty sure I know what the difference is: with the SAT, the essay is done first - when the kid is fresh. With the ACT, the essay is last - when the kid is exhausted. I mean, it's hard to work up a lot of enthusiasm for writing an essay when you have been sitting around answering multiple choice questions for 3 hours. </p>

<p>Anyway, for what its worth, I'm going to advise my daughter to have one more go at the ACT then forget it. Her new SAT scores on CR & Math were almost identical to the scores a year previously - her weakness is with math, and I'm a little more optimistic about the ability to pull up the ACT with a retest. The score choice situation is a big factor. The ACT composite is better in terms of percentile conversion than the SAT... except (ha,ha) for the UC system, where they have a specific formula for converting the ACT score that ends up hurting her. But it doesn't matter for UC - her composites are above the minimum required for eligibility in any case.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for the helpful comments and ideas to consider. I sat down with my daughter last night and discussed options with her, and we decided to just put the whole issue on hold until later in the summer. She can't take the ACTs again until October 22nd, so there is time...and I'm really undecided myself.</p>

<p>We looked at the schools she has on the (ever-changing) list, and for all but two, her score puts her solidly in the running. The two that are reaches are going to be reaches no matter what; not Ivies, but schools that tend to be a bit quirky in their acceptances because they have a self-proclaimed holistic approach to evaluating applications. </p>

<p>In terms of merit aid, she will still be able to apply for academic scholarships at most of the schools, which will entail additional essays. And at all but one of the schools, she will be applying for talent scholarships (including one of the "quirky" schools), so there are possibilities for $$$ by going that route. The additional essays and the preparation of music for CDs (plus the work required for some outside scholarships we've identified) are going to require a major commitment on her part and are the key reason I'm still hesitating about retaking the ACTs. And then, of course, there is the fact that she'll still need to prepare for auditions at most of the schools, on top of the normal solo and ensemble preparation.</p>

<p>It's good to be 47 and not 17!</p>

<p>I told my daughter that if it looked like she was making good progress on her essays and her music by the end of the summer, we could revisit the ACTs. But I did point out that retaking the ACTs made no sense without a commitment to dedicated prep, so ultimately, she was going to have to decide a) if she would actually put the prep time in, and b) if a change (hopefully upward) in her composite would be worth the prep. I have no idea which way she'll choose. On one hand, she can be quite driven and rarely "settles", but on the other hand, she may decide to focus on her music and essays and consider the ACTs a distraction from "what's really important." About the only clear direction that I gave her is that this is going to have to be her choice and her decision...and I'll support whatever she decides.</p>

<p>Calmom, I hear you about placing the essay at the end. I'll be interested to see her writing score, because I know she was beat by the end. She considered it a major stroke of luck that the essay was about a topic she's thought a lot about (something to do with sports vs. the arts). She watched me do battle with our local school board throughout her middle school years over their generous allocation of funds to extra-curricular sports at the expense of the arts curriculum in the district and decided to go to a performing arts charter high school, in part, because of what she saw/experienced. If there was ever an essay with her name on it, this was the one, but who knows if that was enough to override the fatigue.</p>

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<p>It sounds like you are both thoughtful and thorough in your approach to these decisions. With that approach, it cannot help but work out fine. Good luck.</p>

<p>BTW: Noone in your familys sounds a bit "unbalanced"!</p>

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<p>Lorelei, LOL! I think this whole process could make anyone unbalanced if not careful, so I'm really trying to move into the background...more so than I have been in the past year or so. </p>

<p>I also want to take this chance to tell you how much I appreciate all that you've added to the various music threads. Your contributions have given me (and others, I'm sure) a lot to think about and have helped me to understand more about what's involved with the study of music. Thank you.</p>

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<p>mezzomom: You are very kind. As my own family has moved through the maze which is the path to becoming a professional musician, I have sometimes wondered how anyone did it without such invested personal help. On the other hand, sometimes I have thought that my children would have been further along sooner if they had figured it all out on their own. Certainly there are many successful artists without such resources. If I had to summarize what it takes to make it, the core issues are ambition, talent, and luck. Picking the right parents helps, too. Keep us posted as you move through this great adventure.</p>

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<p>Hi Mezzomom...I'm not sure how "low" your daughter's math score is...my son had 730 verbal and 590 math on his SATs. He got accepted to all but one of the schools to which he applied (got accepted at BU, NEC, Peabody, Hartt, U of North Texas and Duquesne....with great music merit aid at all but NEC). He really concentrated on his audition. The bottom line was that for his music major, that was the tipping factor. If he didn't make it through the audition it didn't matter what his SAT scores were. At the universities, he had to meet the academic admission requirements also, but if he was "in the mix" the music department could lean on admissions. We were told this at all of his auditions. Lorelei is correct that most math students have a better time with theory, but my son was an exception to this. He has strong music theory skills and did very well on his theory placement exams at all of his schools. He has never been a strong math student but he studied two instruments including piano for many years, and sang in a choir...I think this contributed to his theory knowledge. I guess some depends on the schools to which your daughter is applying. My son was not applying to particularly competitive schools academically (except Boston University...which is where he is). The conservatories have very "liberal" academic requirements...I think NEC recommended a combined old sat of 900 or better....</p>