<p>In case you did not realize this, African Americans have their own Black National Anthem and African-American Flag.</p>
<p>And that is relevant how?</p>
<p>Hanna -</p>
<p>if schools were first formed to educate native american groups then it would be ok for them to keep their Indian name? That would be the same situation as "fighting Irish"</p>
<p>"you can please some of the people all the time, and you
can please all of the people some of the time, but you cant please all of the people all the time."</p>
<p>If you have the support of 90% of the people, then it should be fine. Everyone will never agree, and 90% is pretty good percentage. How many votes in Congress don't get 90% but still become laws? A lot.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
Then you are sadly mistaken. Unfortunately there are pockets of ignorant and racist people who DO use the flag and Southern pride to mean these things. But for many southerners, that is not the case in ANY way, and it is sad (and racist, or "Southernist" as the case may be) of you to assume it is so.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>It is not that we assume, it is what it means to us. Most don't care what the intent is, after 400 years of slavery, I think it would be fair to say you understand why blacks are against the flying of that flag regardless of what the intent/varying meaning of that flag has.</p>
<p>The "n" word has various meanings too, not all are negative connotations, but it's association with cruelty and oppression still outweighs the rest.</p>
<hr>
<p>Also, razor, I'd say the majority of African American, atleast the youth, could not sing Lift Every Voice in full if you paid them, which is sad, and no more than 10% (at on point the number was 8% of blacks) actually celebrate Kwanzaa, so the flag of Kwanzaa is not really identified as "our" flag.</p>
<br>
<p>So you're saying, what if a school was founded by and for members of that Indian tribe and Indians represented a controlling percentage of students, alumni, and fans of the school (which is the case with Notre Dame)? I wouldn't care, and I doubt anyone else would either. If students on the Pine Ridge Reservation decided to call themselves the Fightin' Lakota, you wouldn't hear any protest.</p>
<br> [QUOTE=""]
<p>If you have the support of 90% of the people, then it should be fine. Everyone will never agree, and 90% is pretty good percentage. How many votes in Congress don't get 90% but still become laws? A lot.</p>
<br>
<p>First, you don't have the support of 90% of the people. You have the APATHY of 90% of the people. Of those American Indians who actually care about this, it's clear that most are opposed.</p>
<p>Second, this isn't about the Congress or majority rule. The NCAA is a private business, part of the education industry. It's making a decision about what's good for itself and its members. It doesn't want to appear to be endorsing these mascots any more. Apparently they believe that respecting ethnic identity outweighs the inconvenience of having to buy new T-shirts. In other words, it's not about how many people are on each side -- it's about how important those people's interests are.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Of those American Indians who actually care about this, it's clear that most are opposed.
[/quote]
I'm not aware of any accurate study of American Indian opinion on this matter. "The ones who care"...I've never been a believer in kowtowing to indignant but vocal numerical minorities. As previously mentioned, the Dartmouth Indian was as respectful and dignified a rendering as could possibly be. It was a bunch of obsequious, PC white kids who made its demise a cause celebre. Do you think Indian head nickels were minted as an insult to Indians, or out of respect for them? Do you know why the US Army Special Forces patch is in the shape of an arrowhead?</p>
<br>
<p>kowtowing</p>
<br>
<p>How is it kowtowing if you listen to the people complaining and decide that they're making a very good point?</p>
<p>I have the incessant urge to start a white-only school, and we'll be The Caucasians.</p>
<p>^^^^^^^^^
Yeah, take Wabash College, put it in Idaho, give it a conservative Christian affiliation, and offer no financial aid!</p>
<p>Well, cre8tive1, I could take a peanut butter and jelly sandwhich and say that to my friends and I, it means the oppression of Jews because my Jewish grandmother used to eat them a lot, and is an offensive symbol that should be removed. But that wouldn't make those things true, I'd just be misunderstanding a harmless symbol.</p>
<p>I do see your point because to some extent, perception is reality. But I think you should take a step back and realize that intrepeting it as such and giving it that power isn't helping anyone. We really might as well recognize it for its historical value OUTSIDE of slavery. Chivalric code, anyone? I'm not saying slavery wasn't a horrible, awful injustice, because it clearly is the biggest blemish on the record of American history. I'm just saying that its time we started to recognize the South and Southern history for more than that.</p>
<p>At its heart, the Confederate flag is a symbol of secession and rebellion, which was an illegal action. That's what the war was about.</p>
<p>It was a symbol of secession because the South believed it was being treated unfairly and did what it believed it had to to maintain it's values and lifestyle. That's something our forefathers really should be proud of, considering that their secession from England was also illegal.</p>
<p>It's an unfortunate fact that the Confederate flag was misappropriated by a bunch of racist yahoos as a symbol for, yes, racism. Starting with its appearance as part of state flags in the deep south in response to federal civil rights "intereference" in the late 50s. Half my family is from down there, and I love it, and respect it. I'm also a serious student of the Civil War. I regret that the symbol of the Confederacy was misappropriated, but it was, and it has a distinctly different meaning now. I wouldn't display it, and I would understand the objections of those who are offended by it. It's too bad.</p>
<p>I agree with everything you just said, driver.</p>
<p>Thanks. Your point about the "secession" from England was an astute one, as well. :) Many of the secesh southerners were only a few generations removed from the leaders of the American Revolution.</p>
<br>
<p>Well, cre8tive1, I could take a peanut butter and jelly sandwhich and say that to my friends and I, it means the oppression of Jews because my Jewish grandmother used to eat them a lot, and is an offensive symbol that should be removed. But that wouldn't make those things true, I'd just be misunderstanding a harmless symbol.</p>
<br>
<p>Okay. The swastika is an ancient Buddhist symbol representing the sun. If I hang a swastika flag from my dorm-room window, is it reasonable for people to get offended and interpret it as a Nazi statement? Or are they just misunderstanding a harmless symbol, since I'm just honoring the ancient Buddhists with my giant swastika flag?</p>
<p>I think we just covered that, Hanna.</p>
<p>I will repost driver's assesment because I agree with it 100% and don't believe I could say it any better:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I regret that the symbol of the Confederacy was misappropriated, but it was, and it has a distinctly different meaning now. I wouldn't display it, and I would understand the objections of those who are offended by it. It's too bad.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It has been covered, indeed, Hanna.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And that is relevant how?
[/quote]
Humans are tribal by nature. (If you don't like tribal, insert some prettier term). In fact, the process of college selection is tribal in nature. The end result is that I am of the Harvard tribe, you are of the Yale tribe and Bob down the street is of the UCLA tribe. Once you are part of a tribe, you want to express your pride in being part of that tribe. Blacks have their own National Anthem and their own Flag and the even made up their own holiday called Kawanza. A lot of Southerners view the confederate flag as showing pride at being southern without any statement beyond that. In other words, the guy with confederate flag in the back window of his pickup truck is probably only saying "I am proud to be southern" and is not saying anything at all about race. In fact, his best friend may be Black. My point is that too many people assume too much when they see a confederate flag. The next time you see a guy with a confederate flag he is most likely a friendly person who likes being from the south. Don't walk behind him, though; otherwise you might step in some tobacco juice, if you know what I mean.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I have the incessant urge to start a white-only school, and we'll be The Caucasians.
[/quote]
You could not get away with starting a white-only school. It's call discrimination based on race. </p>
<p>You could start a school accepting any race but call the mascot "The Fighting Caucasian." (I added fighting because as we know all mascots are big on fighting.) The white students at your school would have no problem being called the Fighting Caucasions. The non-white students, however, would throw a fit and claim discrimination because the school's mascot is intended to suggest non-whites should not come to the school. It would not take long for the non-whites to force the school to change the mascot to the "The Fighting Humanoids."</p>