<p>The needs of 99.5% of this country who could care less of about this issue. That is the problem with liberals who want to please everyone, they end up pis sing off the rest of the country who isn't bothered by something. This never was an issue the 130 years prior to 1993 so why does anyone care now. A greater number of people are offended that the NCAA bans postseason events in states that fly the confederate flag than are offended by Indian mascots, so why aren't you complaining about that. The NCAA's job is not to play big brother. This is the same organization that worried wether or not putting the American Flag on uniforms after September 11th would offend international students!!! They are a joke that they don't let athletes see a dime of the profit that colleges get off of the sale of their jerseys, yet pockets billions in TV deals with the BCS and March Madness.</p>
<p>Right ok, well forget the NCAA, we're not talking about that. We were talking about having ethnicities or ethnic stereotypes as school mascots. So lets do that.</p>
<p>"The needs of 99.5% of this country who could care less of about this issue." I'm not sure what you're talking about. But if 99.5% of this country could care less, then why are you complaining? If you don't care, then why not just let the .5% have its way?</p>
<p>"That is the problem with liberals who want to please everyone." ARE YOU KIDDING ME YOU POSTED JUST A MINUTE AGO THAT "THE NEEDS OF THE MANY OUTWEIGHT THE NEEDS OF THE FEW." Shouldn't we be TRYING to please everyone, if that's true? And if you aren't bothered by something, then why do you get angry when someone tries to change it?</p>
<p>For 130 years prior to 1993, flag burning was not an issue, it was a constitutionally protected right. Now Republicans in Congress are trying to ban it. For 130 years prior to the 1950s and 60s, segregation was not an issue. Should we have left that alone too? I hope you aren't actually 28. Please.</p>
<p>
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NCAA bans postseason events in states that fly the confederate flag
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</p>
<p>You've got to be joking. The Confederate flag, carries a lot of meanings, most that would offend not only audience members (not all) and players.</p>
<p>And Stanford changed their mascot in 1973 (I stand to be corrected). They went from the Indians to the Cardinal (the shade of red, not the Catholic official).</p>
<p>My point was being that these people want to please everyone ( the few, all small psycho factions) so they try to make nonissues out of useless crap that makes people angry (the many, the overwhleming super majority)</p>
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The Confederate flag, carries a lot of meanings, most that would offend not only audience members (not all) and players.
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</p>
<p>But numbers wise their are more people who believe the Confederate flag should be a protected symbol than are offended by Indian mascots. Why don't liberals stand up for that? Oh, thats right, its a white issue so they don't care. (I could care less about the CF BTW I am just making a point)</p>
<p>
[quote]
For 130 years prior to 1993, flag burning was not an issue, it was a constitutionally protected right.
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</p>
<p>I differ from most Republicans on that on, flag burning is freedom of speech plain and simple. I am opposed to censorship in all forms.</p>
<p>Why, why, why is this being turned into a "oooooh, mean liberals" thing? This is the decision of a private organization. If you want to say that it's about political correctness, fine, but it's not a Democrats vs. Republicans issue.</p>
<p>you can substitute "NCAA" for "liberals" in all above posts if you want. I tend to use that word if I am arguing something that isn't my viewpoint. But with acadme being very liberal itself, the NCAA is obviously very out with their liberal view points.</p>
<p>About white male mascots:</p>
<p>My high school's sports teams are the "Rebels" and our mascot is a Confederate soilder.</p>
<p>The reason that liberals don't stand up for Confederate Flag rights is that they don't BELIEVE in those rights and they don't AGREE with people who do. I mean that's so obvious that I can't believe I actually had to say it. It has nothing to do with white people. And I'd like to see your statistics on this issue, that more people are upset about Confederate flags being taken down than are upset about offensive mascots. </p>
<p>I wasn't talking about flag burning as an issue, I was using it as an example of something that didn't matter for a long time but now matters to people. Your arguement that something didn't matter for 130 years so shouldn't matter now was absurd. I was illustrating that point.</p>
<p>I don't understand, if you don't care about mascots, but some people do, why not let them have their way? You keep saying you don't care - so go ahead and don't care!</p>
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I tend to use that word if I am arguing something that isn't my viewpoint.
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</p>
<p>Well, that says it all, I suppose...</p>
<p>May have the source and numbers of those issues to which you alluded (people who are concerned over Native American mascots and Confederate flags)?</p>
<p>beginning, You know someone is capable of reasoned, intelligent discussion when they admit that they accuse everyone who disagrees with them on an issue of being a "liberal."</p>
<p>I never said I didn't care about mascots. Why should the NCAA decide across the board whether or not what a team name should be? Some of these team nicknames have a storied tradition behind them. Schools should be able to decide for themselves what the nickname is. Take a vote and let it be. I personally root for the Cleveland Indians. ALL Indians fans I know (including some actual Indians) would be greatly offended if they changed the team name to be politically correct. Most people on this board obviously are not sports fans, so they do not know the storied traditions behind these team names. To end this debate once and for all PETA says the name "Packers" is offensive because the history of the meat packing industry in Green Bay.</p>
<p>NCAA's decision does not affect BSC games. So if schools don't want to change their mascot, fine. Pull out of the NCAA and set up your own league. The decision was made by the chancellors and presidents of participating universities. Don't like the decision, pull out. It's what international organizations have been doing.</p>
<p>I've had this discussion about a hundred times before, and it's not 100% relative, but I feel it needs to be said:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The Confederate flag, carries a lot of meanings, most that would offend not only audience members (not all) and players.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So many of the people on this board consider themselves so intellectual, I'm surprised that they don't know the true history of the Confederacy. The Civil War was NOT about racial issues; it was about money. First of all, the only reason that the North did not contain as many slaves as the South was due to their North's infertile soil, which made farming and therefore slavery unnecessary. Jealous of the South's success with farming and slavery, the North began to industrialize, "allowing" (I quote this because it really was not a priviledge) the blacks to work in factories where the conditions were so bad that whites refused to. Conditions for blacks in the North really were no better than for those in the South, and both sides of the argument were racist at the time of the war. The war began because the North was trying to force the South to industrialize, and the South did not want to give up their comfortable plantation lifestyles. The Civil War began because the South wanted to preserve their way of life. Neither side wanted freedom or equal rights for African-Americans, and abolition of slavery was only supported by the North because it would FORCE the South to industrialize. The Confederate flag represents the Southern plantation lifestyles, the stuff you read about in Gone With the Wind, for most Southerners.</p>
<p>That said, many morons have turned the Confederate flag into a symbol of hatred, intolerance and racism, which are not the things it originally stood for in the minds of most Southerners. It is unfortunate that this symbol of such a famous way of life has been perverted. One must remember that the North was every bit as racist as the South; should we all turn against the Union flag as well?</p>
<p>Alright, I'm done. This really wasn't pertinent to the discussion at all, but I had to get it out of my system.</p>
<p>I know we are actually arguing a stupid point, because it wasn't really a "ban", they banned it at postseason events, which includes no football games, and only March Madness in basketball. Those are the only college sports that people watch that use mascots anyways.</p>
<p>Exactly. The ban is limited to postseason events and doesn't effect football games. As I said, this decision is meant to start public discourse and its a way for NCAA to act like it cares, while keeping universities happy--that's one Univ. of Illinois, FSU, etc. have protested, but haven't threatened to pull out or anything like that.</p>
<p>For starters, a post above asked when Stanford changed its name, that was in 1972. </p>
<p>I think what needs to be considered is that it is not just the name, but all the trappings that go with it. When Stanford was the Indians, they had a cartoonish logo, their cheerleaders were dressed like little Indian maidens, etc.</p>
<p>while not colleges, how about the Washington Redskins. A team that represents our country's capital and is named for the rotting skins of slaughtered native Americans (redskins), which settlers bought as some sort of "prize".</p>
<p>How about the Atlanta Braves, who had their mascot Chief Knock-A-Homa, who would dance like some sideshow act in front of his tee pee when a home run was hit. Now there is some cultural dignity. Maybe they could be the Atlanta Jews and have a rabbi perform a circumcision after each homerun. Or maybe the Atlanta Blacks with a little "step 'n fetchit" thing going or how about the Detroit Chinamen with a little coolie act.</p>
<p>How about the Cleveland Indians who use a cartoon Indian face that not too many years ago was a dead ringer for the cartoon version of jews that the Nazi party utilized in their propaganda.</p>
<p>Not sure how many native Americans post on this site. However, I would presume that their respective cultures are not fond of the manner in which their names and heritages are used. A real self image booster.</p>
<p>Again, its not just the name, but the whole package of the name, mascot, etc. People above have noted the Notre Dame Fightin' Irish, but as part of the package, the mascot is a leprechuan. Last time I checked, leprechuans are fiction. When it got to addressing the notion of real people, I recall the Stanford Band doing a half time show at ND about the Irish potato famine and received a lifetime ban from the ND campus.</p>
<p>Similarly, don't recall the last time I met an actual Spartan or a Trojan. Native Americans are not fiction, which is where I think the difference lies and dancing clownish native american mascots is not the same as a leprechaun etc.</p>
<p>IMO this is not merely a matter of being PC, it's a serious matter of respect and the lack thereof. But I suppose 100,000 Florida State students chanting and doing the tomahawk chop is just too cool to be let go of -lol.</p>
<p>The confederate flag is still a symbol of the plantation lifestyle, when slavery overran this country and most take it as a sign that you believe the South should be as it was and slavery should still exist.</p>
<p>To us, the flag symbolizes slavery, the good ole' South and old Southern pride says to many black that "we want slavery and white supremacy once again."</p>
<p>On the Rebel flag issue, I am from the north (yeah!) but a flag is just a symbol, let them fly the damn thing if they want for some regional pride.</p>
<p>For a humorous take on the issue:
<a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?columnist=ratto_ray&id=2126159%5B/url%5D">http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?columnist=ratto_ray&id=2126159</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
To us, the flag symbolizes slavery, the good ole' South and old Southern pride says to many black that "we want slavery and white supremacy once again."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Then you are sadly mistaken. Unfortunately there are pockets of ignorant and racist people who DO use the flag and Southern pride to mean these things. But for many southerners, that is not the case in ANY way, and it is sad (and racist, or "Southernist" as the case may be) of you to assume it is so.</p>