<p>No kidding about science and engineering... we just built this $70m science building, soon the largest telescope in the midwest is going to be put on top of it, and the next thing on the agenda is another huge engineering building, also $70m. ND has a lot of very strong departments; nothing could really be considered weak here.</p>
<p>SweetLax,</p>
<p>Emory's has an incredible medical school and has an incredible health center. It is also very strong in sciences and pumps out tons of medical research.</p>
<p>Vanderbilt is home to the best education school in the country.</p>
<p>Northwestern's Kellog school is a premier M.Ba. program. It is also a top journalism school.</p>
<p>WashU is extremely strong in sciences, and also has one of the best med schools in the country.</p>
<p>Northwesterns Kellog is for grad and WashU's medical school is mostly for grad. We undergrad are shunted aside. I dont know much about Emory but I assume its for grad.</p>
<p>As for Vanderbilt, you really couldn't find anythign to say huh? Vandy is one of the best schools in the country but there is a reason I picked ND over it, going back to its stronger overall academics.</p>
<p>Notre Dame is a great school, but unlike the schools it ranks with, it doesn't have a standout department (or stand out departments) like its peer institutions do, which is why it has an "average" PA rating.</p>
<p>Business is awesome, pre-med is awesome, and I think it can be argued that our theology and philosophy are world-class. However, people discredit philo and theo as religious, business is not an "academic" major, and pre-med is a conglomerate of other majors. I think that we have the strong departments, they just may not be the departments people look for. Also, a lot of schools will strengthen certain departments at the expense of others. My old school, Creighton University, was horribly guilty of this. However, ND I truly believe is strong across the board, which is valuable but often overlooked for the reason you mentioned.</p>
<p>Jags,</p>
<p>ND may not be moving up in US News but I know many people, especially on the graduate side, who argue that US News is not a valid indicator. It is something I heard a lot on my interviews! Here is an example.</p>
<p>Clinical psychology programs are rated by sending out a questionnaire to the head of the department for every school which has a clinical psychology program, and they are asked to rank order all of the programs. There are two problems with this. First of all, the head of the department is oftentimes, more often than not in fact, not a clinical psychologist. They are rating something outside of their field. Secondly, there is only a 30% response rate, which US News doesn't mention, so there could very well be a response bias. </p>
<p>I don't know as many specifics about how it is done on the undergraduate level, but I WOULD NOT trust that peer score if my life depended on it. Look at the objective scores, because the subjective oftentimes will lead you astray for all of the reasons we mentioned.</p>
<p>You can keep defending the rankings if you want, but they are arbitrary. ND business was 3rd last year, 7th this year, clearly we screwed up right? Not necessarily. Also, people take advantage of the rankings. WashU has been WELL-KNOWN to waitlist a ton of people to keep their acceptance rates low and to boost their US News rankings. If you want to talk about how schools get high on the list, talk about that, don't try to argue departments because we have as many strong departments as the schools you mentioned. ND just doesn't play games with students just to raise their rankings, we put students first.</p>
<p>Jags likes to get a rise out of people, folks. Go check his other postings... Kind of like the woman who said of ND in this forum--"It isn't about how many people wear your tee-shirts and caps, it's about the difference graduates make in the world." She was obviously someone who doesn't "get" Notre Dame. Jags doesn't get it, either.</p>
<p>Peer review is what kills ND. The Ivies get to rank each other and rank ND departments. Sort of reminds me of a clique of high school girls, who vote for their own from prom court, set their own rules of what is hot and what is not, and essentially determine the parameters of what constitutes popularity. In like fashion, by allowing peer institution rating to be such a major determinant of US News rankings, the ideological and secular underpinnings of the elite Ivy clique have greater impact than the quality of students, faculty or alumni accomplishment...</p>
<p>Bottom line, there are lots o' folks who don't like Notre Dame, resent its Catholic identity and its ability to have strong athletics and strong academics in tandem.</p>
<p>The US News rankings don't appear to have dampened the desire of prospective students to come to ND, though, has it?</p>
<p>My guess is that jags did not apply to ND...or else didn't get in. But I could be wrong.</p>
<p>One thing's for sure, he likes to stir up arguments...and has successfully done so in this case.</p>
<p>ND is awesome!</p>
<p>ddjones,</p>
<p>I'm not trying to get a "rise" out of people. Its just, everyone who goes to a school has made some comment about how their school is "underrated"--and notre dame is one of the places where this happens the most. Most people, if they had it there way would have their school tied for no. 1 with harvard (or whatever is no.1 this year) and then the rest of the list doesn't have the change.</p>
<p>I was just trying to make an observation that Notre Dame is a very good school (which i have continuously said), but the reason why its PA score is low compared to its peer schools is because it doesn't have a "hallmark" program that outsiders would know about. A lot of people, especially University Presidents who are supposed to know how good the "competition" is, know what schools have hallmark programs. I'll bet that when people see Notre Dame, they say "solid across the board, but nothing blows us away." People don't say that about Berkeley, Georgetown, or Michigan, 3 schools which rank right next to Notre Dame.</p>
<p>Also, I don't think Notre Dame puts out a lot of research compared to its peer schools, which also hurts its PA score.</p>
<p>Also, I did not apply to ND. I didn't apply because I didn't want to be in South Bend, not because ND isn't a good school. South Bend just seemed like a miserable place to be, and from what I understand, is once football season is over.</p>
<p>Sweetlax,</p>
<p>I wasn't joking about Vanderbilt. It has the best education program. You know .Ed degrees...B.Ed., M.Ed., P.Ed... program in the country. I don't know why you think thats funny. Regardless, prominence of grad schools do play a huge part in the PA score. Schools are known for things which are published, invented, discovered, etc. Those things happen 99% of the time via the grad schools and professors. Of course thats what would be "known" about the schools. Also, it can be inferred that if the grad school is strong, then the undergrad division would be strong, too.</p>
<p>irish,</p>
<p>the washu "waitlist" syndrome is not the case at all, at least not in the past several years that I've paid attention to it. If WashU were taking 500 people off the waitlist to fill a 1500 person class, I can see your point, but it doesn't. You'll find that it takes less than 100 a year, which is normal for most schools--Notre Dame, too, I bet.</p>
<p>Jags, that is because the US News changed their formula in recent years. The year I applied more than 50% of applicants were wait-listed there. Thankfully US News did change it so that that was no longer as big of a factor. However, Wash U had already done what they had set out to do, they used US News to build a better reputation by manipulating their numbers. Seriously, that is what they did. Look at where Wash U was 15 years ago and you will see it had a meteoric rise, and it was in large part due to US News in my opinion. The applicants were merely pawns for getting where they wanted to be. It just goes to show you (I believe) that US News rankings really don't rank the education you will receive at that school.</p>
<p>As for your argument that we do not have a hallmark program, I listed several hallmark programs at ND. Please show how other schools have more hallmark programs than those or demonstrate how those are not hallmark programs before saying that, because it has already been demonstrated to be false.</p>
<p>I agree with you on ND not putting out enough research, though they are investing heavily to change that, and I believe they will!</p>
<p>In your response to Lax you just further my point on why US News rankings are not to be trusted. You are right, they look at the quality of graduate education at the schools and unfortunately ND is lacking there (again, they are working on it). However, these are UNDERGRADUATE RANKINGS. How valid can a ranking of undergraduate programs be if a main factor is how good the grad program is? Next year I am going to a school with a fantastic grad program but a weak undergrad... should the weak undergrad be factored in to my grad school rankings? I think not.</p>
<p>EDIT: Last point...number taken off the waitlist last year at ND...0. I hope that changes this year though :)</p>
<p>irish,</p>
<p>According to the NRC departmental rankings (which granted, are 12 years old, but are probably the best departmental rankings out there still), Notre Dame had 0 programs in any top 10, and 2 in the top 20 (philosphy and religion). This doesn't show me that it has a hallmark program. For all the besmirching going on, Vanderbilt and Emory are both ranked higher than ND in religion (both are top 10). And a school like Berkeley, which is ranked below Notre Dame, has 40 of 41 programs in the top 10, and all 41 in the top 15.</p>
<p>Anyway, like I said, I don't think Notre Dame is a bad school--I think its a great school. I'm simply trying to point out why Notre Dame's PA score is lower than the schools around it. </p>
<p>Also, if the USNews rankings are not to be trusted, then why would you care what you rank in them?</p>
<p>EDIT:
I brought this up in the that WashU thread about it cutting 500 students. Everyone makes a big deal about how WashU has moved up in recent years. Why doesn't anyone make a big deal about UPenn, which last year ranked no. 4 behind Yale and this year tied with Stanford I believe. When the rankings started in the late 80s and early 90s, UPenn was BARELY top 20. It has moved up faster than WashU has, yet no one complains about it. Perhaps WashU is just in the wrong athletic conference...?</p>
<p>Jags, are you talking about grad or undergrad? For grad, of course ND isn't the best grad school in the world, its mostly catered toward undergrads...even I agree to that.</p>
<p>SweetLax,</p>
<p>I'm talking of ND in general. While most of these departmental rankings are for graduate schools, I think you'll find that most "major research schools" that have good grad programs, have good corresponding undergrad pograms because there is a trickle down effect (this of course doesn't include certain professional schools where the faculty can be completely separate, like business). But ask yourself, for example, how many schools have excellent history graduate programs and crappy undergrad history programs? </p>
<p>Now of course, a school can have excellent teachers who arn't exactly on the cutting edge of the subject--therefore hurting the grad school rating. This could very well be the case, and I believe is, with Notre Dame (it is with LACs). However, Notre Dame isn't an LAC. It is in a group of schools which do have top notch ugrad AND grad programs. This is why its PA score is lower than the schools its ranked around.</p>
<p>Aside from that, when I say "what is Notre Dame's hallmark program" and you say "religion and philosophy"...according to what? If you can show me some sort of source that says Notre Dame's religion and philopshy programs are 2nd to none then fine. But all the things I can find (which do point to those being ND's best programs) don't even have them in the top 10 in the nation. Just because ND is a Catholic school doesn't mean it is the end all and be all of religious studies.</p>
<p>Again, I believe you think I'm arguing something different here. I'm telling you why I believe Notre Dame's PA score is what you consider "low," not why its a bad school...because it isn't a bad school. However, its ranking is hurt because its PA is capped because of its limited scope--even if its financial resources boost it beyond where its PA score is.</p>
<p>wowser--did you read the article about the "new ivies"? In case it slipped your mind, here's a refresher:
[quote]
University of Notre Dame
South Bend, Ind.
It can't be the weather. "This is not God's paradise," says Dan Saracino, assistant provost for enrollment, of Notre Dame's northern Indiana location, where the temperature can sink well below freezing in winter. So why do so many alumni and students love the place? Many cite the unique spirit of this Catholic university. More than half of entering freshmen say Notre Dame is their first choice?an unusually large number. "When we survey students and ask the three things they think about when they think of Notre Dame, they'll say tradition, faith and academics," Saracino says. And, of course, football: the legendary Fighting Irish.</p>
<p>Notre Dame students are not slackers; 95 percent graduate in four years. (Only Harvard and Princeton have equivalent records.) Appropriately for a religious school, more than 80 percent of students are involved in community service?and more than half study abroad. Each year more than 10 percent of graduates go into community-service positions, such as the Peace Corps or AmeriCorps. Although 83 percent of the students are Catholic, religion doesn't play a role in the admissions process, says Saracino.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Jags, I give you credit for researching and finding those rankings, old or not. However, I wonder if you were to ask people in the field how they would rate us. Having actually talked with a few visitiong professors here about it, I think we would rank easily in the top 10, but who knows. It is hard because so much of this is confounded by graduate school reputation</p>
<p>I care what we rank in them solely because prospective students care. If no one on here cared, I wouldn't. I did not use them when looking for graduate schools. </p>
<p>As for UPENN, perhaps it was underrated? Who knows, people give it a lot of credit because it is an Ivy, but I actually think it is a bit overrated right now. Also, I am pretty sure that WashU was lower than Penn ever was, but I don't have evidence of that right now and can't research it for a few days. If anything, it shows why US News rankings SHOULD NOT be trusted and why their PA score is probably BS.</p>
<p>As for your question about how many schools have excellent grad programs and crappy undergrad, LOTS. Would you guess that Georgia State has one of the best Psych programs in the nation, for example? </p>
<p>As for rankings, here are several for Philo but it looks like ND is tied with Oxford as the top school in the world for Philosophy of Religion. <a href="http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/breakdown/breakdown7.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/breakdown/breakdown7.asp</a></p>
<p>Irish,</p>
<p>While Georgia State may not be a "top school"--I'm sure it has a wonderful undergrad psych program, if it indeed has the top graduate psych program (i never heard of it before, and its ranked 105 by the NRC rankings). It may not be looked highly upon because it doesn't have the greatest of student bodies, but I doubt that its undergrad psych program sucks if its graduate program is so highly regarded.</p>
<p>If you're curious, here are the NRC's rankings. They are supposed to come out with new ones this year I believe.
<a href="http://www.stat.tamu.edu/%7Ejnewton/nrc_rankings/nrc1.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~jnewton/nrc_rankings/nrc1.html</a></p>
<p>Anyway, the point of my post wasn't to discredit notre dame. It was meerly to shed light on this whole "underranked overranked" syndrome that people get into, and also to offer an explanation to people, like SweetLax, on why Notre Dame's PA score is low in comparison to schools it is considered a peer to.</p>
<p>Trelilly,</p>
<p>I appreciate the "New Ivies" article. I've read it before. While its great to be on that list, it doesn't change anything I've said.</p>
<p>See, that is the thing, in so many fields rankings do not capture how good a school is. I don't know why but they really do it poorly. The best ratings for psych I have seen are purely objective using statistics, and those I at least kinda trust because they are harder to fudge, but again it all depends on what categories you pick and how you weight them and what not. Looking at my field, there are many decent schools with great psych program (Oregon, IU, Minnesota) where their undergrad ranking isn't anywhere close to their grad psych (granted, it is only one field) ranking. Here is the list <a href="http://www.socialpsychology.org/ggradoth.htm#clinical%5B/url%5D">http://www.socialpsychology.org/ggradoth.htm#clinical</a></p>
<p>Sometimes undergrad does suffer a bit for the sake of a grad program. For instance, I will not name my program, but I will start teaching Intro to Psych the day I walk on campus and will be teaching classes completely on my own the whole four years I am there. Compare that to a school like ND where grad students almost never teach and you can see why undergrad may suffer some. I am sure I will be a fine teacher, but I am not going to say I am better than the profs in the department! Remember, just because a school has good profs doesn't mean that they are the ones who do the teaching.</p>
<p>I know you aren't trying to discredit ND. I just am trying to discredit rankings in general because there are so many factors (like grad students teaching) which they rarely look at. We may have to agree to disagree, and that would be fine, but I am not saying you are a ND hater...though I do still think ND is underrated</p>
<p>Yeah, I was just posting that in response to an earlier poster who asked "why wasn't notre dame a new ivy?"</p>