Need Advice for Divorced Friend with Lowlife Ex

Parents Forum
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<p>First, check Canadian law. I'm not purporting to give legal advice, but the age of majority in SOME Canadian provinces is 19--and child support continues until that age. If the father legally has joint custody and lives in a province in which child support continues to age 19, the OP's neighbor MAY get an extra year. Canada WILL enforce child support orders for children who live in the US who have parents working in Canada. (A friend's ex didn't pay for years but then she discovered that Canada will do this.) I don't know if Toronto is in one of the age 19 provinces, but it can't hurt to ask. </p>

<p>Second, I may sound mean or rude, but EVERY parent in EVERY divorce should insist that the divorce decree deal with the issue of college funding. Even if the law doesn't require a non-custodial parent to pay child support past 18, parents can AGREE that he will. I'm seen too many women whine that it's unfair that their exes won't pay for college when they negotiated a LOT of things they weren't necessarily entitled to in the divorce, but never even raised the question of tuition. Sometimes, having heard that financial aid is based primarily on income, they ask for a lump sum payment rather than periodic alimony, thinking this will get their kids more financial aid. They ASSUME that if mom can't pay, the kid will get financial aid..and then tend to blow up when they find out private schools still expect the ex to pay. </p>

<p>Third, again, I am NOT purporting to give legal advice but in SOME states non-custodial parents can be forced to pay for college. In our state, if there are special circumstances, the courts will even order non-custodial parents to pay private college tuition. In one of the states that borders ours, that's not true. 18 is it, even if the kid is still in high school. It's a state by state issue and I don't know a thing about Wisconsin. But anyone who is already divorced should not assume that the non-custodial parent doesn't have to pay for college. In at least one state, courts will force the non-custodial parent to contribute to the cost of college. </p>

<p>A final thought. Again, this is just a guess..IF the father has landed immigrant status in Canada, the kids may be eligible to attend Canadian universities at their version of in-state tuition. Even if dad won't cough up any bucks, I'd find out if the kids are entitled to Canadian tuition. There are some excellent universities in Canada.</p>

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<p>Sadly, Calmom's experience is far too often the case. And it is not always the case that the deadbeat is the dad. We are in a situation where my stepson's mom has considerable assets which will be taken into account at his one top favorite school, yet she has stated clearly that she will not pay (says she cannot pay) for his college expenses. She cannot be forced to contribute any funds, and we are left with the uncomfortable choice of seeing if she will just fill out the Profile Non-custodial papers, even though it is quite likely we will not be able to cover the portion she should contribute to S2's college. Very difficult. Wish there were some equity in all of these situations.</p>

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<p>The cheapest way for someone to go to college (assuming no financial aid) is to live at home, go to community college for as long as you can, and then transfer to the nearest state school. Sometimes, you just have to do things you'd rather not do. </p>

<p>Also, what would be required to be considered financially independent? That could help with financial aid.</p>

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<p>


It's a heckuva lot better than staying married to the flake. At least I don't have his creditors calling me.</p>

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<p>From the college's point of view, having a non-custodial parent who refuses to contribute to college expenses is really no different from having a parent who lives with the child and refuses to contribute. If a college takes the position that both parents are responsible for the child's college education, and one or both parents have money but refuse to contribute, it does not matter whether the parents are divorced. </p>

<p>The unfortunate student in this situation can either pick a school they can afford without assistance from the resistant parent(s), or move out, get a job, and establish themselves as being financially independent of the parents.</p>

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<p>ellemopope, what it requires to be financially independent is that the student be 24 years old. My son has supported himself and lived on his own for 2 years and if he goes back to school coming year, he'll have to include my income/assets on his FAFSA. </p>

<p>That's just basic FAFSA requirements - some colleges require more, such as a showing that the student has not been claimed as a dependent on parental tax returns for 2 years or more. </p>

<p>The age requirement can be bypassed if the student is married, has kids of her own, or is a military vet.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the info calmom. I didn't realize there was an age floor.</p>

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<p>Side note to JoeV: while I am not a big fan of divorce, I am even less a fan of women trapped in abusive relationships or of children existing in a living hell (or purgatory) of non-stop acrimony. The emotional costs are much higher than a divorce. And the resulting single moms generally have some of the toughest rows to hoe.</p>

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<p>Calmom, a child has to be 24? What if they are coming out of foster care, parents are still living, but have not had custody or a relationship with the child? Any family law attorneys out there?</p>

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<p>Thanks to all who gave productive advice.</p>

<p>jonri-special thanks for the ideas of checking into the Canadian age of majority and the Canadian schools. I will help her do both. And your comments on prenegotiation hit home. I went with my friend to her appointments with her divorce attorney who was trying to get her to get something in writing about college. The ex had claimed he was still going to be a wonderful father, be there for them, pay for school,etc. Well in six months he was out of state and refusing to do anything outside the support. My friend had wanted to keep their relationship civil for the sake of the kids and thought that pushing to get it in writing would be a sign that she didn't trust him to do right by the kids (!!) How wrong and sad.</p>

<p>And to those who questioned my putting "lowlife" in the title of the post - if this guy isn't a lowlife, you must have some pretty low standards for decent behavior!</p>

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<p>Cangel --there would be an exception for a kid who is orphaned or coming out of foster care. But the kid whose parents kick him out at age 18 after high school and who works for 3 years would need to include parental income on a FAFSA when applying to colleges at age 21. </p>

<p>My son is 22 and wants to go back to college next fall and I am thinking that he may be better off working a while longer -- except for the fact that daughter is starting college next year, so we actually may be better off splitting the EFC with two kids in college. That is, if our EFC is $15K and with 2 in college, that makes $7500 each -- son could handle his end pretty much on his own, and that would make things much easier for me in terms of my 17 year old. But without his sister starting college, the EFC would be unmanageable. I am not supporting my son any more so he has to pay for colelge on his own now. As noted,I AM a single parent and I simply don't have the resources to be forever on the hook for college expenses, so my deal with my kids is that I will subsidize 4 years of college over a 5 year period after they graduate from high school - son's time has expired.</p>

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<p>Some straightforward facts: I am a single mother (divorced), and an attorney. I'm not a divorce lawyer, but I've been thru the mill on domestic relations law--in four different states, in my own situation and helping others...so here are some legal facts:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>What a payer parent (which, as a matter of legal definition, is separate from custodial, joint-custodial, or noncustodial parent) will be required to pay by a court varies by state...when the parents are in different states, unless the divorce decree specifies the state law that governs, the court fight starts with which state's law governs...certainly, Wisconsin's law needs to be consulted. Generally, though, a court will not require payment of any kind for any reason past a child's age 18 (or finishing high school if the child turns 18 prior to finishing high school). A court will enforce an agreement that includes one parent assuming some responsibility for post-age-18 payments (e.g., for college), but won't impose that responsibility in the absence of an agreement...</p></li>
<li><p>To my knowledge, no state requires child support past a kid's age of majority--age 18. By extrapolation, that means no state that I know of will requiring a support-paying parent to continue to pay support, even for college, past age 18.</p></li>
<li><p>I know of some custodial parents who have successfully sued for contributions to the cost of college--but it's not a child support situation. And it's extremely fact-specific, and I don't know of any that succeeded after the support cut-off age had been reached.</p></li>
<li><p>FAFSA requires income information only from the parent with whom the child lives (and it also requires income information from a step-parent who lives in the same household with the child.) But other financial aid formulas do in fact require income info from parents who refuse to pay for college, whether or not they live with the child(ren).</p></li>
</ol>

<p>It's possible the OP's friend can sue the absent parent, but it will be an expensive (in both time and emotion) undertaking. ANd it's by no means certain she (or her child) will prevail.</p>

<p>Bottom line: any parent can refuse to contribute to the cost of college. The law does not impose an obligation on parents to pay for college. And few colleges "count" a parent's refusal to contribute in assessing the applicant's need. It's a sad reality, but a reality it is.</p>

<p>The OP's friend may have no choice but to look for merit aid colleges, or schools where the combination of FAFSA only-based financial need assessment plus loans plus work by the student can cover the COA.</p>

<p>The reality is not everyone values higher education to the extent we on CC do. I know several otherwise "good folks" who believe, as a matter of conscience, that children over the age of 18 no longer "should" get financial support...and of course there are the absent divorced parents who shirk their financial responsibilities, and those who don't shirk, but who refuse to funnel anything monetary thru their ex-spouses, no matter what...</p>

<p>My advice (for what it's worth) to the OP is to look at merit aid options, and in-state (or otherwise more affordable) options where loans won't be too crushing...it sounds to me like the prospects for success of a lawsuit--not high--likely merit a VERY hard thought before incurring the fairly massive cost of such a lawsuit...sadly, it sounds like it might be one of those "life's just not fair" situations where the best use of limited resources would be to find options that don't include the absent father...</p>

<p>It's a sad situation</p>

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<p>According to <a href="http://www.Financialaid.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.Financialaid.org&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This is the test to determine whether one is an independent student</p>

<p>Were you born before January 1, 1983?</p>

<p>Will you be working on a degree beyond a bachelor's degree, such as a master's or doctorate, in school year 2006-2007?</p>

<p>As of the date you will be submitting the FAFSA, are you married? </p>

<p>Do you have children who receive more than half of their support from you, or do you have dependents (other than your children or spouse) who live with you and receive more than half of their support from you, now and through June 30, 2007? </p>

<p>Are you an orphan or ward of the court or were you a ward of the court until age 18?</p>

<p>Are you a veteran of the U.S. Armed Forces?</p>

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<p>I agree with overanixious mother because laws vary from state to state you really need to find out the laws as it pertains to the state you reside in (or you may have to modify your agreement based on the state where you got your divorce.</p>

<p>I live in NYC and I think that moidifications are based on where you obtained your divorce (state supreme court vs. the family court). If your divorce same through the family court then you can request upward/downward modifications through the court.</p>

<p>In NYS child support is determine as follows:</p>

<p>Under New York State law, parents are responsible for supporting their child until the child is 21 years old.</p>

<p>The court uses a standard guideline to figure out what the non-custodial parent will pay. The child support amount is based, in part, on the non-custodial parent's adjusted gross income and in part on how many children are involved. The court first determines the non-custodial parent's gross income, and then deducts from the gross income Medicare, social security tax, New York City or Yonkers tax, and other allowable deductions to establish the non-custodial parent's adjusted gross income. The court then multiplies the adjusted gross income by the standard guideline percentage for the number of children. These percentages are:</p>

<p>17% for one child,
25% for two children,
29% for three children,
31% for four children,
at least 35% for five or more children.
In each case, a share of childcare, medical, and educational expenses is added to the appropriate percentage amount. Together, the combined amount is the basic child support amount.</p>

<p>The standard guideline percentage is applied to almost all parental earnings up to $80,000 (minus certain local and social security tax amounts). This includes worker's compensation, disability payments, unemployment benefits, social security payments, and many other forms of income. After $80,000, the court determines whether or not to use the percentage guidelines, and it may consider other factors in setting the full support award.</p>

<p>Every two years the child support agency automatically reviews each child support order to determine whether the amount to be paid should be increased due to cost of living increases. If the cost of living has increased by more than ten percent since the order was made or since the last review, the child support order amount will increase by the amount that the cost of living changed. The cost of living adjustments can be made without going to court. For non-temporary assistance or non-safety net cases, a notice is sent to both parents when a case is eligible for a cost of living adjustment, and either parent may request the adjustment. For cases where the custodial parent or child is on temporary or safety net assistance, the cost of living adjustment is automatically made when the case becomes eligible - without either parent requesting the adjustment.</p>

<p>Either the custodial or non-custodial parent can file a petition in family court to request a modification (change) to the existing child support order. The modification petition should be based on the fact that either the custodial or non-custodial parent's circumstances have materially changed (e.g., change in income, other changes in circumstances).</p>

<p>So basically your child starting college would be reason to go to court to obtain an upward modification for a change in your support order. If you have your financial aid award letter with your EFC (especially if it is based on the income of the non custodial parent), the court will modify the suport agrement to include payment of the college expenses.</p>

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<p>If you pull an Evander Holyfield, how do they determine which baby momma gets percentage of income after each kid?</p>

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<p>joev, please go away. </p>

<p>The original question was what to do when a non custodial parent will not contribute to college costs. </p>

<p>The answer is: document it. Attach a copy of the page of your divorce decree that spells out when support ends. </p>

<p>In my state the court mailed me a letter telling me that support would end. Call your court and ask if they will send you something in writing to that effect. Include that with your explanation to the colleges.</p>

<p>If you filed any motions along the way to increase child support, collect medical or other expenses, include a brief summary as "proof" of your ex's unwillingness to support his children.</p>

<p>What you describe is not a new phenomenon. College financial aid officers have seen exes before who only contribute the minimum amount required by law. And they know that unless exes are required to contribute, the vast majority don't.</p>

<p>I do not agree with posters who suggest that students live at home and attend community college to save money. That is not always the least expensive way to go. And the kids miss the opportunity to go away to college. </p>

<p>I am also a single mother with a semi-deadbeat ex. I am chronically broke, although I don't have collection companies knocking at my door. I managed to send them both to an excellent independent school, on scholarships. Thankfully, the school acted as a father to them.</p>

<p>After high school my kids applied to small LAC's and several Ivies. It's fair to describe every one as an "expensive private college." </p>

<p>What I discovered is that the "expensive private colleges" have endowments, and are generous with financial aid. They almost always have "need blind admissions," and implied, or suggested, or flat out said that they would help us make college possible. The colleges came through for both of my kids.</p>

<p>If your friend's child is a strong student this process is a little easier. </p>

<p>Our state school would have cost $15,000+ more to attend this year, than my daughter's Ivy charges her. </p>

<p>The state school offered her a $1,000 merit scholarship and no grant money at all. But they did offer her a lot of loans.</p>

<p>I expect her $45,000/year Ivy to cost about $5,000 for everything, (tuition, room, board, books, fees, travel, incidentals, etc.). And this year she will not have to take out loans.</p>

<p>My daughter is bright, and she is well qualified to attend an Ivy, but she hasn't written a book, saved a starving village, or won the Westinghouse science award. It's not like the school is getting a coveted football captain. </p>

<p>This is simply what many colleges do when families don't have enough money.</p>

<p>I also think they recognize that students with unsupportive fathers are more appreciative of financial aid, and of a good education; and that they are more driven to do well in life, and will probably contribute back to the school one day. College financial officers are a pretty savvy lot.</p>

<p>lwk</p>

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<p>You go away lwk! I was just asking a simple question on how they base child support when a father has several children with many different mothers. I didn't do anything to you.</p>

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<p>If I am reading this correctly in some cases it is beneficial to the separated parent to be divorced. My friend is not planning on divorcing her husband, but they will definitely not be getting back together. For financial reasons she presently feels she is better off without the divorce. Her husband pays for everything though not in a timely manor. Their finances are a mess. He makes a good salary but they spend a lot of money and live in a high expense area of the country and no savings. She makes a small income, recently back in the workforce after many years as a stay at home Mom. They have no custody agreement but the kids live with her. She is thinking they can squeeze in state tuition but no private schools. She feels they will not qualify for any need-based aid. But if they were divorced her income and standard of living would be cut in half from what it is now and she could file for aid on her own with schools that don't require profile. Husband is a flake and will never get it together to file any paperwork.
Am I reading this right?</p>

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<p>That's a tough one for me to call mom60. Your friend has sound reasons for staying married or she would be divorced. </p>

<p>In my opinion, the worst possible circumstance is a husband with high income who refuses to contribute to college costs. I think a student is better off with divorced parents, purely from a financial aid point of view. </p>

<p>But it's a moot point because we have to work with facts as they are. Your friend will have to sit down with a financial aid officer and explain how the finances in her home work. </p>

<p>Aid officers have seen it all. Your friend has to be open and honest, and explain everything. They will ask hard questions. And, I think they have a sixth sense for sniffing out whiners who don't want to pay, from those of us who really can't.</p>

<p>I think it will help if she has as many documents to back up her explanation as possible. She'll need bank statements, copies of tax returns, real estate papers, brokerage statements, pay stubs, and her checkbook registers for the last several years to show how much she used to spend and how much she spends now.</p>

<p>Think of this as a tax audit from hell. The worst IRS audits are when they compare people's lifestyles to their reported incomes. </p>

<p>People who report $15,000/year income and purchase a million dollar home are suspicious to the IRS. If there is an honest explanation, it just needs paperwork to back it up. If the money came from drugs, the IRS will figure that out. It's just too hard for normal people to hide income.</p>

<p>Financial aid and tax audits are similar. At least to my way of thinking. </p>

<p>The FAFSA and PROFILE only suggest an "Estimated Family Contribution." (EFC). They are not the final word. College financial aid officers who put together aid packages are the final word.</p>

<p>Your friend's EFC might be the total cost of her child's bill. Don't despair. When she sits down with an aid officer and explains everything in embarrassing detail, the amount she pays can differ dramatically.</p>

<p>If your friend has, say, $10,000 for a state school, it's entirely possible that she could pay that to a private college and her daughter receives aid for the remainder.</p>

<p>I would tell your friend's daughter to apply to the state school, and to also apply to the schools that she really wants to attend. </p>

<p>Then I'd tell her mother to start early with the financial aid offices at each school. This family has special circumstances and the schools and she need more time to complete this aid application. </p>

<p>By starting early she also tells the schools that her daughter is serious about attending "_______," and that is always a good thing.</p>

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<p>Mom60 - separation is the same as divorce -- if the parties live separately and file taxes separately, for purposes of taxes and the FAFSA it is exactly the same as if they were divorced. Actually, separation has a slight advantage: it prevents either spouse from legally marrying anyone else, so you don't get a step-parent's income thrown into the picture.</p>