Need advice on dropping an instrument

My child has dreams of attending a top-ranked Conservatory. Current pursuits are

  1. Music Composition
  • About 10 hours a week outside of school
  • Several awards (all rather well known, wouldn't name them for privacy reasons as child's name is listed in their web sites)
  • Intention to Major
  1. Piano
  • About 10 hours a week outside of school
  • Several awards (same)
  • Not core area, but really loves piano
  1. Cello
  • About 5 hours a week outside of school and 5 hours in school
  • No awards
  • Plays in 2 chamber groups and 1 orchestra in school
  • Plays in the second highest level orchestra in a top-5 conservatory's pre-college program
  • Not core area, was started to aid in composition and also to play in a group

Child is finding it unsustainable to manage 25 hours of music outside of school. Also, this is hindering a strong interest in a particular sport which was given up in 8th grade to accommodate music, but is now being regretted.

Given that, the proposal is to drop the cello both in and out of school. Is this advisable given academic goals? Also, what if this is used as an EC to go to a regular college? Is dropping cello in favor of sports advisable then?

10 hours a week on composition seems excessive - unless you mean your child spends that time composing on his/her own, in which case it could even be more! But if 10 hours for classes & lessons - I would cut that back - to give him/her more time to actually dream and compose.

Playing in ensembles will be extremely helpful for composition, though - so I think cutting back on the cello itself could be to his/her detriment - but there’s no pressing need to be in 2 chamber groups plus two orchestras. Cut back there. No reason to play in both school and pre-college orchestra, unless it is a requirement for one to play in the other. I would recommend cutting out the orchestra whose conductor teaches your child the least about the music - which is what is useful for a composer.

On the other hand 10 hours a week on piano isn’t very much, unless that is in addition to practicing, in which case it’s excessive. My own son gave up piano lessons mid high school years. But that didn’t mean he stopped playing.

Know that when your child is in college keeping up with the sport will be extremely difficult because of the conflict of rehearsal and practice times. (My son tried to keep playing baseball in college but had to eventually give it up. However, he did manage to play Varsity baseball on a competitive team in high school, play in a jazz band, a funk band, was principal of a regional youth orchestra (on cello), took piano, cello, conducting, and composition lessons, a New Music analysis class, and ran his own regional New Music ensemble. So it’s definitely possible! Lots of changing outfits in the car from baseball uniforms to tuxedos.

@Spiritmanager, Thank you for your response. 10 hours of composition is 9 hours composition time and 1 hour class each week. I know that 10 hours of piano is not much - it is 7 hours of practice and 3 hours of class and his piano teacher wants 20 hours of practice each week. The trouble is that there is already 35 hours of school each week, 25 hours of homework, 25 hours of music, and may be 10 hours of outside of school math. That hardly leaves 8 hours of sleep per day (which we insist on) and may be 2 hour of anything else. That’s not sustainable as we want him to have time for sports and other ECs like school newspaper and music related community service, and, far more importantly, social activities like hanging out with friends. So, something has to give. I am at my wits end here.

There’s no way my son did 25 (35 including math?) hours of homework a week, although he did fit in a study senior year so maybe he was cramming it in then.
What year is your son? What does he think?

I should clarify. My son really put in good academic effort junior year and, at that point, was considering LACs like Wesleyan. During the summer, however, he realized he wanted a conservatory experience. That actually simplified everything. He took 2 APs senior year, but auditions plus all his musical interests just organically took precedence. Will your son apply as a composition major? My son ultimately chose a program that would allow him to compose but his entre was jazz guitar. So, in that sense, he was able to narrow his focus.
What is the sport? Is it competitive, or could it be a nice stress relief?

I would cut back on the schoolwork. 35 hours of homework, including the math, is too much - since his/her real work is music. However, the math might just be fun for him/her? What does your child want to do - which things is he/she he willing to let go of? And you might just have to give in and let him/her get less sleep.

@SpiritManager - We (I said “we” - not a good sign according to the helicopter article) once looked at cutting back on homework, but could not figure out how to do much without risking grades. We found some optimizations. Homework that can be done while riding in a car is reserved for commuting time. Also, S found that in APUSH, their was an optimization of spending quality time on the note-taking part, which boosted the notes grade and simplified study time. S also will take his first study hall next semester - he would have had one now but insisted on taking a new “creating music” class. We reserve sleep compromises for very few days - I believe you do not want tiredness to be part of your work, you don’t want productivity of your time to suffer.

Also, it sounds like your son may be feeling stressed by his piano teacher’s expectations surrounding practice hours. Would the teacher be willing to work with him if your son explained that 10 (not 20) hours practice a week is what he can realistically manage?

Thank you everyone for the responses. Dropping schoolwork (grade 9) is not really an option, as, given the course load and school expectations, 25 hours is the bare minimum (3-4 hours each evening plus weekend homework). We shut down shop at 9:30 pm but are told that other kids are studying till midnight. Math is a big area of interest at par with composition (apparently there are lots of similarities). The options therefore are to go light on either piano or cello, and piano is preferred by the kid, who wants to give up cello and orchestra. As for piano, realistically, to be a pianist, 10 hours is not enough. We are told that 2-3 hours of practice a day is routine for other kids in the same age group and competency level. So it is not teacher driven per se. It is what is needed to get to the next level. Even the composition teacher wants us to homeschool and put more time on composition (not happening). Cello is the weakest instrument.

Given these constraints, is giving up orchestra and cello the right decision? It also frees up 5 hours in school (3 hours of study halls and 2 hours after school) which can go to doing homework in school. But it ends all music participation in school as well which will make the school music faculty quite upset.

Couldn’t the student cut back on some of this cello playing without giving it up entirely? Get rid of the conservatory program and do the minimum at school? Sounds like it is desirable to keep a hand on the cello without giving it up completely. Sure, school will be unhappy that the student isn’t in three school groups, but why not do just one given that cello is the third priority?

Composition and piano are both very solitary. Playing in ensembles will give the student a community which is so important in high school. And friends to perform compositions. I would highly recommend against giving them all up. Just cut back.

We had a similar situation with one of our kids with slightly different instruments involved. After discussing long term goals and priorities, we made the decision to switch piano teachers - piano was a secondary instrument - to a teacher who was happy to go with 1 hour of regular, solid practice - all that could reasonably be carved out of the daily schedule. This did, indeed, result in slower progress and no more competitions, but this seemed best for our student.

I believe we switched after 9th or 10th grade, and our student was still able to learn the Beethoven 3rd piano concerto to perform for recital (not competition) purposes with the new teacher, focus on some college prep piano based theory, accompany choral groups at during high school and pass all the piano proficiency requirements upon enrolling at conservatory. As a young professional, those piano skills developed in high school are still being used regularly in accompanying students. It sounds to me that your S may already have reached a fairly advanced level of piano playing. If this is the case, my point is that I think you may find that even “light” piano study such as you are considering can be very valuable and may be more than sufficient to support his focus on composition.

These decisions are hard. We had to switch teachers since the first could not or would not understand that piano was a secondary instrument and not the long term goal. Focusing on the goal for college study and professional aspirations helped clarify things for us. Good luck!

What does your son want to do? That is the most important thing to clarify. It is very very important not to live too much for future admissions, especially a 9th grader. This is way too much pressure for someone that age, who may change his mind about a lot of things in the next few years. If music becomes this stressful he may even give it up- I have seen it happen.

I would avoid competitions and awards as much as possible They can be false incentives, add pressure, and really aren’t necessary for admissions. At least that is my opinion, for a high school freshman. If your son likes competition, he might do well to return to the sport he likes, but keep composition and music as artistic pursuits to be enjoyed rather than competitive ones.

Spirit Manager is right about the social benefits of ensembles and also the access to musicians to play pieces. But I know a student at the other extreme who didn’t play an instrument at all during undergrad years and is in a really good PhD program in composition.

A summer program would be great (I personally am a fan of Walden School in Dublin NH, where students can compose and play).

Many students in later high school stop playing in school orchestra or ensembles, if they have talent and are involved elsewhere. It is quite possible for your son to get the same social benefits from the sport and then he could do music outside of school, and have study halls.

He should find teachers who understand his age level. I would not keep a composition teacher who suggests that a kid this age homeschool to compose That is extremely short-sighted and to me, reflects some kind of excessive investment in your son on the part of the teacher. Composing is a life-long journey. Too often a young person shows talent and gets exploited by teachers who don’t understand what comes next after high school. And learning about history, art, literature can really enhance composing over the years.

Let your son try some things out, which may indeed mean dropping some things. And he doesn’t have to do everything at once. If composition is his main goal right now, he can focus on that and ease off on some of the other music. Play a sport, hang out with friends, then he can return to whatever he wants to do over time.

I have read that there is a transition around this age from what kids think they “should do” (what parents want) to want they genuiinely want to do themselves. It is an important moment to honor :slight_smile: If, in a year, your son says that ALL he wants to do is music and he wants 30 hours a week of it, then certainly homeschooling or an easier school might be in order. Right now it sounds like adding a sport and lowering both music and stress would be a good idea.

Three more years of high school to go after this! Good luck!

My suggestion would be for him to keep playing cello, but to stop cello lessons (if he’s taking them), and minimize practicing. So what if he ends up being last chair?

I think keyboard is really useful for a composer, so I’d suggest keeping piano, but perhaps change to a less intense teacher. If he wants to be a composer, the goal is not to be a concert pianist, but to be a competent player.

I agree with compmom about summer programs. My son benefitted greatly from this.

I also agree that the idea of homeschooling so he can do more composition is nuts. That would be a great way to burn him out on music before he ever gets to college. Also, it’s really not necessary.

I personally think if he doesn’t want to play the cello anymore then he should be able to let that go. As our kids get older they more and more figure out what they want to focus on and what is important to them. He’s telling you that now. If his passion is piano and composition, so be it.

9th grade is still a bit early in the process to be worried about admissions to school, while it is always good to look towards the future,. 9th grade is still very early IMO to be worrying about that. There is such a thing as doing too much, and I think your S may be entering that territory, if he is bogged down in 9th grade with that much homework, it likely will only get worse as time goes on. With music there are always tradeoffs, a lot of instrumental kids homeschool because they find the time in school, the homework, the rigid schedules, and often the pressure from the school music teacher to do a wide variety of things (when school music directors see talented musical kids, they tend to glom onto them, and want them to do all these ensembles, pit band/orchestra, you name it, and it can get ugly if the kid balks), and homeschooling gives them the flexibility they need (it isn’t for everyone, there are a lot of reasons not to do it). My thoughts:

1)I would drop the school program, if the kid still wants to pursue the cello. While school programs generally don’t take the kind of time other things in music do, it is still slots in the kids day, it is still pressure. If he is playing in a pre college program, he likely is getting a lot of musical exposure there, much more than he would from a school program (to be blunt, a conductor at a pre college program at a conservatory is likely to be teaching a lot more music than a public school music director, or even a private school one). If his passion is composition, learning about ensembles, learning about the music, can be a big help I would gather (not claiming expertise in composition, the parents who have composition kids like spiritmanager and hunt are the knowledgeable ones.

2)I agree with others, if the kid’s focus is on composition, if cello and piano are auxiliary to that, I wouldn’t be so concerned about competitions and awards on them, and quite honestly,it sounds like your S is musically talented and the teachers are looking at him as a serious student on the instrument, and that is going to cause problems. They will expect more practicing, because they see your son as a cellist or a pianist, when he sees himself as a composer. It is true that a lot of composers were also excellent instrumentalists, but they also were in a different world. I think the ensemble experience that cello gives, for example, is helpful, but if the cello teacher demands too much, then it may be worth dropping it. If the piano teacher is pushing the kid to do competitions, or practice a lot more, and is giving the kid a hard time, then you may want to talk to the teacher and explain where the kid is with it. It is a real positive IMO that the teachers see your son like that, it means he is very musically inclined if they feel that way about him, but he has the right to determine his own future.

3)I think as time goes on you should also be aware that with music students, whether in a true conservatory (stand alone school, like Juilliard, NEC, Peabody) or music schools within universities or conservatories linked to universities (Bard which requires a dual degree, Music school inside a university or LAC (Michigan, Norhwestern, Rice, etc), have a different path than a straight academic admit. For example, in stand alone conservatories the whole EC thing, the whole having X AP classes, having the hyper gpa, the top SAT scores, will not help your admissions to the school, the admissions are based on the audition.

For a student applying to a music school inside a university, grades and SAT scores will be a lot more important than at a stand alone conservatory, they can get you academic merit aid, and also those schools require the student to be academically admitted as well as the audition. They do judge music students by a different standard, because they understand how hard the process of getting ready to audition is, so a music student heading into performance will be admitted with stats that might not get them admitted if they were applying academically only.

With composition, if the student is applying for a BA program in music to study composition, then the academic achievement might be important, a lot more than if applying to a BM in composition (and on that, I say may because I am not an expert on composition programs, the other parents can give you more information.

As has been discussed on this board a lot with music there are tradeoffs, but if it helps your decision making any he may be able to drop the level of academics in high school and be able to carve out more time from the academics and allow him more time for the music. The common theme is that if academics conflict with music that it may be better to lighten up on the academics, since if you get in academically but not into the music program it doesn’t help you much, and likewise, great SAT scores and 4.0 GPA won’t get you admitted into a music program (with composition, it is more about the composition portfolio if I understand correctly, but still, the student will need time to develop that portfolio in high school).

Musicprnt, I find this sentence interesting: " It is true that a lot of composers were also excellent instrumentalists, but they also were in a different world." This reference to the past (and past tense) is interesting in the contexr of compositiion. Let’s hope that everyone knows people are still composing!! :slight_smile:

In some cases, high school composers are advised to do a BA rather than BM, for broader exposure to various subjects that may contribute to composing, and because composing is a long journey that will most likely include grad school anyway. Some highly selective schools have great music programs, with foundational and advanced courses in composition. I would go by quality not name, but still, it might be too early to decide academics aren’t important.

That said, students in 9th grade are still growing and need to eat and sleep. Opportunities to develop in music abound, whether in conservatory or college. Noone should overdo academics any more than hours in music, if life is stressful. Balance and a chance for exploration are important at this age and it seems the son wants to do exactly that.

@compmom:
I meant that with people like Bernstein and Rachmaninoff and the like, who were both renowned composers and were also top level musicians (both pianists), that I doubt many kids would be able to do that today, that the amount of work it takes to be let’s say a high level pianist these days would make it difficult to also do the work to become a serious composer (and obviously, these are terms that have relative meanings, what is a top level pianist, what is a serious composer). There always has been a joke in the music world that if you want to see a piece butchered, have the composer play it(fairly recently, they discovered piano rolls for a player piano, that had piano works by Debussy,and it turns out Debussy himself was the one who did the playing that cut the rolls…and everyone was shocked how much it varied from the score lol). Bernstein for example retired as music director of the NY Phil because he wanted to concentrate on composing, so there also is that factor as well.

What I was saying with academics isn’t that being able to learn isn’t important, of course it is, especially with composition that requires understanding nuances of theory, music history, the physics of sound, and these days I wouldn’t be surprised neuroscience. What I was talking about is if he wants to get into any composition program, it is likely that a large part of that process will be in his portfolio and to a certain extent musical ability, and that the whole 8 AP’s, 2300 SAT, 4.0 GPA, EC’s to gain admission may not be important in getting in for music students or composition majors, they give leeway, and the academics take away from the composition side or the music side, it may be wise to pull back on the academics.

Reverse engineer it. Your child will have a target list of schools he/she wants to attend. You said top conservatory - Curtis, Colburn, Juilliard, NEC, Peabody, Eastman, CIM, MSM, and a few others.

Practice
Develop relationships with the professors
Go to the summer programs that feed into those schools
Compete in state competitions
Compete in regional / state competitions
Network with students (past and present)
Practice
Practice
Practice

Grades / test scores not really important - but realize you are pigeon holing yourself - closing doors on university programs, academic merit opportunities. But if that is clearly your child’s path, taking tons of AP exams, doing a lot of homework is not necessary.

That being said, your child will not be auditioning for cello, piano and music composition at a school.

It is not essential to go to conservatory, especially for composers, and academics may remain important if a student wants to keep all options open. Many want the focus on music that conservatory offers, and want that total immersion, but that really is a decision for later high school I think.

There are parents on this board whose sons or daughters excel in both composition and an instrument. We certainly know professors who have continued on both paths. And there are those composers who never touch an instrument. There is a range.

Quality of life is important for growing high school students and burn out is always a possibility. Racheting down some of the demands of both academics and music will not jeopardize this student’s future at this point and may allow some down time for him to explore what he really wants.