Need help finding a good "Ivy Fit" - any advice?

<p>I think it means you go to Dartmouth with your eyes open. You visit perferably on a Thursday night. You ask a lot of questions. You ask if you can stay in the wellness dorm. (They have one.) And then you decide. My kids didn’t look for places with no drinking or even places with wellness dorms, but they did both at least have an overnight on the campus and saw what they were like.</p>

<p>^ D1 visited the school where she is now for a Sat overnight and the picture was tame. I’m trying to say it’s hard to generalize.</p>

<p>A caveat:</p>

<p>When my daughter was in high school, she and her friends didn’t drink or do drugs, and all planned to continue on that path in college. The high school students who drank were all scuzzy and low-lifes, and so that was their impression of partiers. </p>

<p>Most of her high school friends lasted about one semester before their attitude shifted. They all drank in college. My impression is that they didn’t drink every weekend, they usually drank with friends in dorm rooms, and they rarely got totally wasted. And there was no pressure to drink – if they didn’t want to, they didn’t. But there is no question that they all drank at some point, and occasionally too much. </p>

<p>One thing they realized is that someone who drinks is not necessarily a loser with low grades and no future, which is often how it works in high school. At the Ivies and other top schools, the really smart go-getter talented brilliant students are drinking too. My daughter and her high school friends all developed a more mature attitude about drinking and drinkers. The bottomline is that most 20something professionals drink socially, and eventually high school students have to mature and figure out how to fit into this culture. </p>

<p>Yes there are some schools that rely more heavily on drinking and partying than others. But even at the other schools, kids are drinking and partying. And chances are that a lot of those teetotaling high school students change their attitude and behavior in college, and start drinking – even if we parents continue to think they are “non-drinkers.”</p>

<p>Penn is the biggest party Ivy and has a large Greek scene.</p>

<p>I don’t know for sure, but I think Dartmouth would be ok if you don’t join a fraternity.</p>

<p>SteveMA - I’d prefer not to say the exact name of my college, but suffice it to say it had over 35 fraternities and only a student population of about 4000, and while you would think that should have “tipped me off” - like I may have said, neither myself as a teen, nor my parents knew to ask questions like this at the time (and the Internet was not yet invented!!) And NO - there were NO theater productions, only an outside lecturer maybe once or twice in 4 years, that I can recall, and believe it or not, this school was ranked just under the Ivies on many “lists” at the time, and likely still is. But sincerely, thank you for your comments and advice. Oh, they hosted an occasional “big time” rock concert but there was NO discounts to the students, and the prices for these concerts were almost comparable to what you would pay nowadays. (Ok, maybe slightly cheaper, but not much - so not “really” an option for most students). No comedy nights, and also, only 2 movie nights in 4 years that I can recall and I think THOSE were hosted by a frat!</p>

<p>^lookingforward, generalizations are just that. What your daughter’s visit to Dartmouth shows is that everyone isn’t drinking.</p>

<p>Consider an overnight visit. It could be an eye opener. But remember whatever school u go to alcohol is around our cities colleges and overall life. You make your choices. Good luck. </p>

<p>Sent from my Desire HD using CC</p>

<p>

This post made me wonder whether local geography is important–we noted at Penn that there were frat houses right in the middle of campus. At other schools, they are more on the periphery, or even off-campus entirely.</p>

<p>I think it has an impact. At NU, the Greek houses are right on campus, in quads that also house or are right next to regular dorms. So everyone walked to classes together, played frisbee together, etc. I think that provides less “sequestering” versus campuses where there is a Greek row someplace off campus.</p>

<p>D1 is not at Dartmouth. I just meant, the school where she is now, an LAC that could be on OP’s list, if she extends beyond Ivies. How do we generalize from mini’s formula or a report from a friend’s son/daughter or our own college years, ages ago? </p>

<p>Does she take Penn off the list because a poster says it’s the biggest party Ivy? I hope not. 25% of the students are involved in frats/sororities, (not all are national houses, not all are residential)- and 75% of the kids are not actively involved. Presumably, a big chunk of those are interested in more than drinking on weekends.</p>

<p>Hunt, I was thinking along those lines, as one measure. But, it helps to also look at “student organizations” on campus, the calendar of events, etc. I think the keywords are dig and filter. Info about campus life is on the college websites. It can help to post on, say, the Dartmouth or Princeton forums and see how current or recent students view the social scene and fit.</p>

<p>I don’t think OP is looking for a “perfect world.” I think she’s trying to ensure her son has other options- and we’re all remembering some of the recklessness we saw when we were in college. I think the goal is our kids have the experience they want, with plenty of friends around to enjoy that with. The drinking scene is just one dimension of that goal. A wellness dorm can put you in a milieu of like-minded kids, but it’s also just one aspect.</p>

<p>I agree that you have to dig and filter–and you can’t rely too much on what a school was like 30 years ago. For example, when I was at Yale, frats had virtually no presence on campus. One of the big social outlets was film societies, with movies being shown on campus every night, and sometimes multiple movies on weekend nights from different societies. The biggest societies showed popular movies, and showings were crowded. Today, the film societies are gone, and frats play a bigger part in campus social life. Yale still has plenty to do besides party, but things have changed there. I’m sure similar changes have occurred at all colleges–so find out what’s happening now.</p>

<p>I seldom post, but feel the need to respond to this one. I have a D who went to Dartmouth as a non-drinker. After a year, she was drinking, but not to excess. She had the same friends both before and after…and she always felt that if you did not judge at Dartmouth, you would not be judged. Noone ever pressured her either way. Dartmouth likes to say work hard/play hard, but when you really asked the kids they always said they did not really feel there was as much partying as many of their friends’ schools, including other Ivys. </p>

<p>By the way, the wellness dorm at Dartmouth is across from the gym and is newer (and air conditioned) so many of the kids who opt for this dorm do so for other reasons. They do not drink in the dorm, although many will drink outside and return home. My D lived there her sophomore year (ironic since by then she was drinking) but never complained of any problems with the two different types of students living there.</p>

<p>Bottom line, I really believe that the children in schools which attract high-achieving students are in general perfectly willing to live and let live. Everyone seems to get along as long as they are respectful of each person’s decision. I also think the internet is a huge help in our children finding others with similar interests. </p>

<p>Good luck to the OP and everyone. It’s scary when they leave, but they seem to find their limits while still having “the time of their life”.</p>

<p>Lifelearner - I have a very good friend who undertook the exact same search with her son a few years back. Sounds like he has a similar personality to your son, in that he wanted a fun college experience but not one with a HEAVY party scene. He also had the qualifications for a top tier university. She concluded that the following schools had less of a party atmosphere:</p>

<p>University of Chicago
Johns Hopkins
Columbia - students do party but it is mostly centered off campus, so those who do not care to participate are not surrounded by it or feeling isolated.
College of William and Mary
Pepperdine</p>

<p>In the end her son attended Columbia and is now starting his Junior Year. It has been a perfect fit for him - he found NYC to be very liberating and Columbia’s campus to have less of the usual “college scene” that one might find elsewhere. Her conclusion was that Dartmouth, Cornell and University of Pennsylvania had the most “active” greek scenes.</p>

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<p>Speaking just about Cornell, yes, it has a huge Greek scene, and yes, that scene involves a lot of drinking.</p>

<p>But the school is so large that there are also thousands of students who have nothing to do with Greek life and who live however they please. Some of them drink moderately, occasionally, or not at all. </p>

<p>You only need a dozen friends at college.</p>

<p>One of my kids went to Cornell and didn’t drink. She had no trouble finding those dozen friends. They weren’t all nondrinkers, but they were all people whose lives didn’t revolve around alcohol.</p>

<p>OP,
You need to consider much more than “drinking and drugs”. While you can choose participating in parties or not, you absolutely cannot change location of your school. I do not know how important this is for you, for many others location is pretty much at the top of their criteria list. As for schools above, they are great, but my own D. do not like Chicago, no way she would choose NYC and I heard (but not sure) that JHU is not at good location. This is just another criteria, I am sure you personally have others and they are different. As I said, you can control your own behavior, but certain college-related things are not in your control at all. I would strongly consider them. I heard many (maybe too many) stories of how some kids are very unhappy being far away from home, something that they did not predict would happen to them, many end up tranferring…
I mean, consider much wider picture than dringking parties. Personally, I believe if somebody wants or do not want to participate in party life, they can find their own crowd at any place whatsoever, this is something which is fully in your control.</p>

<p>Marian makes a good point when she says “you only need a dozen friends in college”. That is very true. I think part of the equation here is surrounding yourself with like minded people who will support who you are. Then what everyone else is doing becomes less important. If your son is social and has the capability to form meaningful relationships with his peers, I am certain he will do fine at most universities.</p>

<p>Lifelearner, not all schools offer “wellness” or sober housing, but we have been told by several people that you do not want your child in that type of housing unless he or she is a recovering addict. The reason is that some parents insist that their kids live in this type of housing as a condition of going to college, and there are usually more people with alcohol problems in these dorms. You’re better off taking your chances with the regular dorms.</p>

<p>My daughter is also looking for a top school with less partying, not because she doesn’t want friends who drink (heck, she has friends who drink now, in high school!) but because she doesn’t want drinking to be the predominant “fun” on campus. She would also like to be able to actually sleep in her room. I really don’t think we’re asking too much, are we?</p>

<p>I think the key is to be in a school near a city or large town, so that you have access to cultural activities off campus. I don’t know if you literally meant you wanted a school in the Ivy League or just a school of that caliber, but you might want to look at Stanford and Pomona. Yes, they do party, but we’re told it’s possible to get away from it.</p>

<p>The issue (for me, anyway–and for my daughter) wasn’t really drinking vs not drinking, per se. It was that we do not enjoy loud, crowded, raucous gatherings. So it’s not like, “Oh, I’d be happy to go to a frat party if only I could have a soft drink!” It’s really a matter of wanting to find other things to do entirely. My daughter doesn’t mind alcohol itself–she doesn’t like to be around very intoxicated people (not because she is judging them, but because they aren’t very interesting, you know?) and she simply does not like crowded places and noise AT ALL. </p>

<p>If the only choices are go to a party vs. stay in your room, then it becomes much harder to find all the other people who don’t care much for parties. Because they are in their separate rooms, wondering how to meet other people who share their idea of fun.</p>

<p>If the school offers lots of other social outlets–organizations, activities, gathering places–then these kids can find each other.</p>

<p>My daugher’s college has a dry campus. It also has common spaces on each floor, so that the kids who prefer a quieter, smaller-group interaction can find each other pretty easily. They also seem to have a lot of on-campus evening activities–organization meetings, political “watch parties,” rehearsals, team practices, etc. On the weekends, the students have easy access to the city at large and can find plenty to do other than going to parties. Or they can hang out with the other homebodies in the lounge and have a scrabble tournament.</p>

<p>That’s the way I remember my own college experience as well (I rarely drank at all, and didn’t know many who did, although the campus wasn’t dry), but I gather that things have changed over the years.</p>

<p>I never heard of place with “the only choices are go to a party vs. stay in your room”. There are always common places, inside and outside, awesome rec. centers (at least in most of our state publics, amybe not so at privates), club sports in addition to Varsity, various events, even Greek life does not have to go overboard and get every participant drunk. They work, volunteer, take care of themselves, getting great college GPAs, do Research, workout in gym, visit back home and other places where their HS friends end up going, they simply do not have time to party all the time, unless they belong to few who went to college specifically for that.</p>