<p>or you can have fun pwning the op.
it's entertaining and amusing.</p>
<p>roflcopter this thread is hilarious</p>
<p>I will post in this thread, causing my name to go down in forum history</p>
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If you want, I can dig through your old posts and throw them right back at you.
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</p>
<p>harharhar</p>
<p>time to save this thread for posterity</p>
<p>lol i regret to ask him to leave this thread after I shut him down at his face.
there's no fun anymore.</p>
<p>plz come back you'llsee :p</p>
<p>I thought you said you were quitting CC InquilineKea rofllmaocopz0rs.</p>
<p>LOL
10chars</p>
<p>Question - if black students graduate from the top universities with equitable credentials as their counterparts - then why is there a need for AA in admissions at the top grad/professional schools?</p>
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Question - if black students graduate from the top universities with equitable credentials as their counterparts - then why is there a need for AA in admissions at the top grad/professional schools?
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<p>I have a two-pronged response to this. The first deals with your assumption that blacks actually graduate with equal credentials to their non-black counterparts. I do not believe this is actually true. Surely, African Americans have similar graduation rates to students of other ethnicities, but that speaks little about their undergraduate performance. After all, it's NOT difficult to graduate from an Ivy League university at all. You might not get the best grades, but you're still going to graduate. An interesting data set should consider the number of honors degrees conferred to people of certain ethnic groups, or even a tabulation of extracurricular involvement would work.</p>
<p>The second part is that I suspect that some graduate and professional schools have almost identical admissions philosophies to their undergraduate counterparts. Obviously, graduate schools would like to be as meritocratic as possible. But top professional schools seem to want to proliferate "diversity" in the workplace, even accepting a large number of legacy and development cases themselves.</p>
<p>Thats because blacks that go to elite colleges aren't the ones from compton or the bronx, but rather rich, elitist black families.</p>
<p>AznN3rd....>what a Lame sentence
you will be surprised that a few blacks that attend elite schools grew up in Brooklyn, Bronx etc. so please that give me that BS</p>
<p>I hate when ppl give exceptions.
just b/c a few blacks who go to elite colleges are poor doesn't mean all of them are. (of course, i can't prove most are rich)</p>
<p>it's like, if I say asians are short,
then some IDIOTS, RETARDS, come to me and say Yao Ming is tall
i'm always like, "duh, are u stupid? go to hell! just b/c yao ming is tall doesn't mean asians are tall. asians are still short!"</p>
<p>as an african american student at an elite school, i'd say that So Authentic is right, but it all depends on what ethnic group you fall into. At my school (harvard), the majority of the black kids there are from Africa, then comes the Caribbean, and lastly the United States. Most of the caribbeans are from the bronx, brooklyn, (i.e. most are from very urban areas). The Africans are usually from lower-middle class backgrounds but generally grew up in the suburbs. The few african americans (and trust me, there are very few) generally come from upper-middle to upper class backgrounds. of course, everything i just said are generalizations, some people (most) fall into those categories and then some exceptions don't.</p>
<p>and, as an advocate of Affirmative Action, i will completely admit that is a flawed system. Here i am going to Harvard, and there are so few African Americans (descendents of slaves) there that it saddens me. I'm constantly surrounded by black immigrants who came to this country recently and did more than my people did in 400 years (albeit, there were some things that held us back...). And on top of that, I don't even see the kids AA was supposed to help get in. </p>
<p>AA was designed to help black kids (descendents of slaves) get a fair shot at college because of the historic discrimination they faced during slavery, segregation, and even today that has caused them to lag behind other ethnic groups in this country. The thought is that black people have been so discriminated against that they do not have the economic or social resources to succeed like other ethnicities do. And while this is true on the whole, it is not at all the case when it comes to elite education. These immigrants come to this country and get into elite schools, but it was not on their ancestor's back that this country was built. and then there are the rich black kids at Harvard (and i'll admit, i am one of them), that while they faced discrimination and racism, they had parents that armed them with the motivation and resources to succeed. and, then there are the colleges that want to prove that this country has changed, that there are equal opportunities for everyone, that they support diversity. so they let those recent immigrants and those rich black kids in, because quite frankly, those are the only black people who apply. the people who really need affirmative action, those african american kids living in the projects and the ghetto don't get enough motivation to do well in school so they end up perpetuating a cycle and living in the ghetto themselves. and for those who do succeed in this environment, applying to harvard is the last thing on their mind because many are misinformed about the resources available.</p>
<p>so yeah, affirmative action is flawed, but what can we do about it?</p>
<p>There is NO perfect system. I feel like just in general everyone wants a completely perfect system out of fear and simply to put themself more at ease over the college process. We'd all like to think that there is some kind of set formula that will equate to complete fairness and a simple guaranteed system andthere isn't.The college process is not completely fair and that is OK. Of course there are people that will say " Oh you are just rationalizing affirmative action because you are African-American" which is definitely not the case. There are legacies which as an immigrant do not benefit me in any way but that is fine by me.
Would a system of only grades and SAT scores make the college process completely fair..YES..and no. There is a general idea that someone with a higher gpa and higher sat score should definitely be accepted over someone with a lower gpa and lower sat score. I can see the rationale in this but at the end of the day we are all human& we are more than just numbers on a page & that should be embraced. Some people have parents and grandparents who attended the college and have a history there. Some people are from underrepresented minority backgrounds & can bring a new perspective to the school. As much as people attack affirmative action, legacies, extracurriculars ( i know pple. who think regardless of extracurrics a higher gpa& sat score should outdo extracurrics) they ultimately bring diversity to the student body. It brings personality to the college process & its hard for me to attack it on those basis.</p>
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so yeah, affirmative action is flawed, but what can we do about it?
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<p>hotpiece, thank you for your piece. What you've stated is precisely the problem with affirmative action in that it assumes that people of certain ethnicities are the same. But I think the REAL problem lies at the elementary/secondary school level were blacks seemingly under-perform relative to their peers. I think the appropriate thing to do would be to promote outreach programs, hire better guidance counselors, track African Americans to a higher curriculum while promoting an advanced high school education and all these other things at the pre-college level. I think affirmative action is a superficial response to the real problems of society, and is not an appropriate way of dealing with them on a long-term basis.</p>
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[quote]
it's like, if I say asians are short,
then some IDIOTS, RETARDS, come to me and say Yao Ming is tall
i'm always like, "duh, are u stupid? go to hell! just b/c yao ming is tall doesn't mean asians are tall. asians are still short!"
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</p>
<p>It's really Southern Asians who are short. </p>
<p>Northern Asians (such as South Koreans and the Manchu and other Northern Chinese) are pretty tall nowadays.</p>
<p>OMG this thread is still alive!?</p>
<p>So wait, Africans and Caribbeans don't deserve to go to elite colleges even when we work hard? It's only Black Americans that deserve it? I'm sorry, that's a bunch of bull. It is not our fault, or our concern, if Black Americans do not want to take advantage of the resources around them, and we Africans do. Do not resent us because of that. If a person gets into an elite college, they deserve to go know matter what their background.</p>
<p>And do you know how hard it is for Black immigrants to survive in America, all immigrants for that matter. Coming from countries where we are persecuted, some where people are killed. Then we come to America, and instead of getting into useless life in the streets, we hit the books because we know, like our parents have taught us, that education is the only way to earn respect in this country. I'm not trying to say that all Black Americans are in the streets and I know that many Black Americans lack leadership in the home and in the media. But please do not turn your problems onto us Black immigrants. We work hard for what we have so don't belittle it saying that we are messing up AA for Black Americans. Tell Black America to get their act together first.</p>
<p>If that is not the message you wanted to convey and I just ranted for nothing, please clarify.</p>
<p>And no this does not give anyone an excuse to bash Black people because their problem stem from the history and present day of racism.</p>
<p>TrackBabi, </p>
<p>I think your post was directed at me (but I may be wrong because of your unclear use of "you"). Nevertheless, I'll address your concerns first and then reword my previous post so that hopefully it is clearer. </p>
<p>Firstly, I never said Africans and Caribbeans don't deserve to go to elite colleges. And I also never said that Black Americans deserve to go to elite colleges more. And trust me, I in no way resent immigrants. And I wasnt trying to "turn" the problems of Black Americans onto the immigrants. I never meant to belittle your hard work or achievements or insinuate that black immigrants mess up AA for black Americans. I'm sorry if my post was unclear in any way or if it upset you. Trust me, that wasn't my intention.</p>
<p>The point of my post was that affirmative action is flawed. It was originally designed to help African Americans get into colleges because of historic discrimination and the strong correlation between race and economic status (i.e. most African Americans are poor). Therefore, AA was supposed to give a boost to these kids as a way to make up for the effects of slavery and segregation and account for the lack of economic resources characteristic to black people. So, an immigrant was not originally supposed to benefit from AA and neither were rich African Americans. </p>
<p>However, in the current era of politcal correct-ness, increased diversity has been characteristic of top business, schools, even the Presidential Cabinet. In no way do I think this is a bad thing, quite the opposite, I think increased diversity is great. My only issue is when colleges (and employers for that matter) view race as ethnicity. When Harvard releases its yearly demographics and says that 10% of its students are African-American/Black, I think it is a little misleading. 10% of the students are Black, but only like 1% are African American and of that 1% only .2% come from disadvantaged backgrounds (they are not upper class or legacy-you'd be surprised just how many of the African American kids at Harvard are legacies). And that really wasn't the original aim of AA. But like I said, what can these colleges and universities do? The people that AA was supposed to help don't apply so elite schools accept the black kids who do.</p>
<p>And as a general disclaimer, I'm not saying that all the black kids got into their elite schools because of AA. I'm just saying that IF affirmative action is used as a boost at all, it is being used in a way that is different from its original purpose. My post was not an indictment against those who "wrongly" benefit from AA (immigrants, the wealthy, legacies, etc) as I am included in this category. I was simply stating what I think is wrong with AA. Feel free to disagree.</p>
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If that is not the message you wanted to convey and I just ranted for nothing, please clarify.
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<p>Of course Africans and Caribbeans should be rewarded for their hard work. The main focus was that they seemed to benefit from the general "African American" label whereas immigrants of other <em>certain</em> ethnic groups are left out. Now that's just unfair.</p>
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If a person gets into an elite college, they deserve to go know matter what their background.
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<p>I absolutely agree, and I have never disputed this. If a person earns a spot into one of the nation's premier colleges, then he deserves to be there.</p>
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We work hard for what we have so don't belittle it saying that we are messing up AA for Black Americans. Tell Black America to get their act together first
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<p>The last time I checked, the black race has it pretty good when it comes to affirmative action. More to the point though, I think we should actually address the roots of African American underachieving through outreach programs and reformed education systems, rather than just promote arbitrary racial categories at the college level when it's simply too late to help fix those problems. I don't think it was ever anyone's intent to "Tell Black America to get their act together."</p>
<p>Ok I respect that. It's just that I hear a lot from Black people that immigrants don't deserve to benefit from the advances that Black Americans have strove for. Even though we held our own in Africa after the genocides called slavery and imperialism. </p>
<p>Historically, Black people were not admitted into colleges because of racism, and even now the historical repercussions of racism affect their success in this America no matter what their household income is. So AA helps that. But it is not only Black people it helps anyway. We don't even make up that much of the top schools so I think black people benefit the least from it. </p>
<p>I guess what I'm trying to say is, Black is Black to the outside world, whether you're an American or an immigrant/descendant of one it's good to see Black people in college. It's a good image. Our past struggles may not be the same, but our future successes could be intertwined. </p>
<p>On another note: For me I see rich Black kids getting into schools the same as rich white kids getting into schools. Don't they come from the same high schools? So I don't understand why, even when they are upper-class, people still seem to downgrade their success, but do not do them same for white legacies. Not that I am saying you're doing, hotpiece, just some ppl in CC.</p>
<p>Wow it's funny seeing all these people so mad that Black people are graduating from the colleges they said they didn't deserve to get into.</p>
<p>Ex.
Whiny kid 1 says: "Well...well graduation rates don't equal GPAs."</p>
<p>Whiny kid 2 says: "OMGzz, all Ivies ensure that their students pass...that doesn't mean they're smart"</p>
<p>Get off of it. If you're a proponent of equal rights then you truly won't be complaining. And do not say that AA is reverse discrimination against whites b/c you all are still a blatant majority in all forms of higher education. So don't worry about that.</p>
<p>"Ex.
Whiny kid 1 says: "Well...well graduation rates don't equal GPAs."</p>
<p>Whiny kid 2 says: "OMGzz, all Ivies ensure that their students pass...that doesn't mean they're smart"</p>
<p>..... :)</p>