<p>I'd like to see some proof that there are so many wealthy Blacks in top schools. I think this is being (vastly) overstated.....</p>
<p>How am I being ignorant? The fact of the matter was all 100 of the students wanted to go to college, the AID was given to those who did not need it, which saddens me.</p>
<p>kk,</p>
<p>There are not more wealthy blacks than poor blacks at top schools. There are more wealthy African Americans (at least in my experience). Firstly, there are hardly any African Americans at top schools in the first place. The blacks that go there are mostly African/Caribbean. Secondly, the few African Americans who do go there are either legacies, wealthy, or went to a really really good high schools. I can maybe think of one person who I can legitimately say grew up in the ghetto, went to a terrible high school, and still made it Harvard. </p>
<p>However, that is not the case for most black people at Harvard because the truth is, it's hard to get to Harvard when you have to get a job and help support the family, when everyone around you is more concerned with breaking into the rap game or making it big as an athlete, when all your friends claim that you are "acting white" because you do your homework, when your school is so terrible that your teachers are barely certified. And if you are one of the lucky few who can triumph in spite of all these factors working against you, then yeah you think about going to college, but not Harvard. Because who the hell is gonna pay for an ivy league education? Many top schools now have special financial aid intiatives in place to make the schools affordable to low income students, but how do these kids find out about them? And if they do, many parents need that money that the kid was making at his job, they need that kid to stay around and help raise his siblings. I'm just saying that it has been my experience, that since African Americans as a group place so little emphasis on education, it's no surprise that many of the African Americans at elite schools come from wealthy backgrounds.</p>
<p>"Firstly, there are hardly any African Americans at top schools in the first place. The blacks that go there are mostly African/Caribbean. Secondly, the few African Americans who do go there are either legacies, wealthy, or went to a really really good high schools."</p>
<p>I don't know... It seems like the exact opposite at my school. In fact I'd say that African and Caribbean students are quite easily the minority of the Black population. I don't know how or why you are ok with making such sweeping statements.</p>
<p>If you want to speak to the climate at Harvard then so be it, but unless you have in-depth knowledge about all top schools, I don't think you should be saying what happens in them.</p>
<p>Maybe at Northwestern that is the case, but definitely not at Harvard. What I described is exactly what Harvard is like. Ask any current Harvard student and they can attest to how the majority of black kids there are African or Caribbean. But like I said, I have no experience with Northwestern, so maybe it's different there.</p>
<p>Hotpiece, I still think that you are making that generalization the AdOfficer spoke of. You don't personally know the household incomes of these people. I don't see the same at Cornell or JHU. </p>
<p>I agree with you there are a lot of African/Caribbean students, but not more. It just seems like a lot. There aren't even enough of us in the US to fill up Black populations at universities. But like kk I don't think you should make generalizations based on your experiences at Harvard</p>
<p>Also, we should remember that just because your family's income is above $80,000 that does not make you "wealthy". My family's household income is over $100,000, that's cool and all but we have a house to pay for, 3 kids in college and one on the way, immigration issues, loans and relatives to support overseas. </p>
<p>himanCeo, if you take that all into account, I think those students maybe did the scholarship. They were lucky 'cause at my school we Ivy bound got jack and state bound students got all the money.</p>
<p>I hope you guys remember && keep in mind that the blacks that are in elite schools aren't there because of money alone, they worked there but off && got good grades (unless the university favors legacies && wealth)</p>
<p>matter fact, "Wealth is from the mind, not the pocket"</p>
<p>You guys make think I am making sweeping generalizations, but this is a topic I have discussed numerous times with fellow students. The Harvard BSA had a round table discussion 3 months ago about African American-African tensions at the school, and why there were so many immigrants (African and Caribbeans) and so few descendents of slaves. Trust me, I don't know how or why, but at Harvard there are more Africans and Caribbeans than there are African Americans.</p>
<p>And, you are right TrackBabi, above $100,000 may not seem like a "wealthy" income to you or even me. But to many it is considered such. But, I'll modify my terms for you. Most of the African Americans at my school, that I have come in contact with are either upper-middle class, went to an elite high school, or are legacies. Some people incorporate all three characteristics.</p>
<p>Here is an article from the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. It supports what I said about there being more immigrants at Harvard that African Americans. I bolded the key sentence. </p>
<p>
<p>Now an article published in the American Journal of Education provides evidence to support Professor Gates’ claim. Researchers at Princeton University and the University of Pennsylvania find that 40 percent of all black students at the eight Ivy League colleges had at least one parent who was born outside the United States. About 13 percent of the entire black population of the United States are recent immigrants. Therefore, the number of black students of immigrant origin at Ivy League schools is more than triple the level of recent immigrants in the U.S. population of blacks.</p>
<p>The study found that black immigrant students at Ivy League colleges were far more likely than their African-American peers to have had a father who is a college graduate. Thus black immigrants were more likely than native African Americans to come from families with higher incomes. They were also more likely to have attended private school. Another finding was that once in college, black immigrants and African Americans performed equally well academically.</p>
<p>The authors conclude, “We cannot answer the question of whether the children of black immigrants are worthy beneficiaries of affirmative action, for that answer rests largely on a moral judgment.”
</p>
<p>Here is the link to the article: <a href="http://www.jbhe.com/latest/index021507_p.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.jbhe.com/latest/index021507_p.html</a></p>
<p>Ok maybe in Harvard this is true, but what we are trying to say is that this assumption, nor the one about wealth, should not be generalized for all schools. </p>
<p>Personally I don't even think there should be a debate on if it's fair that black that Black immigrants are benefiting from civil rights. It just stupid to think that way, (Not speaking of anyone in particular) even to talk about it. I thought the fight for civil rights was for all kinds of people not just Black people. Especially AA, it is for all disadvantaged minorities. (I always just quarrel with why Black people need it) </p>
<p>So let's not question wealthy Black people or Black immigrants let us accept that minorities are starting to get a fair leg up. </p>
<p>I also just realized and this is in reference to the original topic of the thread:
Ok lets say there are legitimate numbers that say the average GPA of Black students is 3.2; whites, 3.4; Asians, 3.7. (Not real you guys) This at a school like Harvard, let's call it Charles University. </p>
<p>Demographics at Charles:
70% white
20% Asian
4% Black
6% miscellaneous</p>
<p>And the graduation rates for Black students compare quite evenly against both Asians and Whites. </p>
<p>But we all know that from statistics, is it safe to say that you have a "good" test. The sample sizes are not equal with Blacks being a startling minority. Bad scores in the white group have ample room to be made up because they have enough to have room for many excellent scorers. </p>
<p>This is also how some high school sports programs are grouped, by population. Like this theory they see that with a higher population there is a higher chance for more randomly placed, potential star athletes.</p>
<p>If that makes any sense at all. Just don't make conclusions based on some numbers.</p>
<p>hotpiece...
At Harvard, your generalization may very well be accurate. I was a grad student there (I'm old, but it wasn't THAT long ago ;)), but your comments were very much like those I heard from many black undergraduates and some of the black graduate students working with the undergrads. And Harvard has come under fire about this, but I think it is something they are working on, in much the same way they are trying to increase representation of other populations who have been traditional under-represented there. Mr. Gates has certainly been a strong voice urging Harvard to look at itself and understand what, exactly, "diversity" at Harvard means.</p>
<p>YES! I agree with the Adofficer
And seriously I think that diversity is important but if you have 20 qualified caucasians but 20 african americans that are a notch below I think you shouldn't do the whole take ten caucasians and take ten african americans just for the sake of diversity like some schools do. If all 20 qualified caucasians are better then just take them. I wonder how Wesleyan does it. It's rated the most diverse student body</p>
<p>AdOfficer, kk, and TrackBabi,</p>
<p>Sorry if I misspoke in some of my posts, I was referring to only Harvard as that is the only school I have experience with...</p>
<p>
[quote]
one goes to cornell, one goes to brown (and his brother went to harvard). i thought those kids were so smart and rich, they don't need the scholarships. they might have deserved 4-6, and th rest (30ish) should have been given to the ones who NEEDED the money to go to community college or the state university!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>THe way that financial aid is set up at Brown and Cornell, any out side scholarship will be used to eliminate the self help aid first (loans and workstudy. However, Brown does not allow you to eliminate all of your self help aid so you must keep either the workstudy or the loan). After the self help aid, Harvard and Brown both apply the outside scholarships to reduce their own institutional aid.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Trust me, I don't know how or why, but at Harvard there are more Africans and Caribbeans than there are African Americans.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not surprising.</p>
<p>According to Mr. Tim Wise, African and Caribbean immigrants often come to their new country with well-developed human capital. In other words, they're educated and care about education; they don't suffer from a skills deficit.</p>
<p>Consequently, their children score well, are unique due to their dual American and international heritage, and are favored because of their skin color.</p>
<p>why does there children score well? Simply because of darn development and parental resources. proved my point thank you fabrizio </p>
<p>welle xcept for that last statement where you say we're favored by our skin color...W<em>T</em>F?</p>
<p>How are we favored by our skin color? Last time I checked it was not a luxury in this world to be Black</p>
<p>
[quote]
How are we favored by our skin color?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>With regards to admissions policies; the mere existence of racial preferences through affirmative action.</p>
<p>affirmative action to me is such a stupid idea in the first place. Everybody should be treated equally at every school && just disregard race. Who really gives a squat about your ethnicity when it comes to college admissions?</p>
<p>"Everybody should be treated equally at every school"</p>
<p>-And this means what to you? Also.. don't certain people have to be treated 'differently'.. i.e. those who score higher on standardized tests, have higher GPAs, etc? At which point would people be getting treated 'equally' to you? Should schools not recruit athletes anymore? What about development admits? What about merit aid? What about financial aid? What about legacies?</p>