New Automatic Merit Scholarships for U of Alabama

Parents Forum
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<p>ferryboat: I have a big problem with automatic merit aid.</p>

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<p>I don't think that you understand how the system works. For a school to have the endowment fund necessary to outright provide "free education" to low-income students (a number that GREATLY exceeds the number of merit scholarships it hands out), the school FIRST has to attain the rankings that cause donors to enrich those endowment funds (the money doesn't just appear out of nowhere) to the point where such numerous "give aways" are possible.</p>

<p>Those increases in college rankings begin with increasing the number of students that have high stats. Having those students on campus, increases the number of better profs a school can attract (It's hard to attract those Ivy grad profs to come teach at a college where the average ACT is - say - 21.) Having higher-achieving students, and a higher class of profs on campus enable the school to snag better research grants, etc. All of the above help the school attract more donors to the school. Once the endowment fund is flush, the school can be more generous to low-income students (again, a greater number than the scholarships being handed out.)</p>

<p>There is a positive "chain reaction" that occurs when higher achieving students are on the campus. Studies have shown that for each dollar that is "given away" to such students, the campus receives more than a net gain from "the chain reaction."</p>

<p>By the way, using such stats as a 12% increase is VERY misleading. When tuition is low, such as it is at Alabama, any increase is going to translate into a "high" percentage. An Ivy could increase its tuition by $2k a year, and someone like you could say, "Oh, that's only a 6% increase. But when a school like Alabama raises its tuition by about 600, then people like you squeal that it's a 12% increase. Alabama, unlike other universities, does not charge a lot in tuition AND it doesn't have a "student fees" charge (an area where some colleges hide increases).</p>

<p>You may wish that things could be different, but wishes aren't going to put the dollars in the endowment fund to enable such numerous and generous give-aways. The school is investing in a SMALL number of students, with the hope that those investments will pay off big (and research has shown that this strategy works and is working.)</p>

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<p>midwestmom <<<< I love merit aid. My laid back kid might even be willing to do a practice PSAT test when the time comes, if he is thinking about the possibility of free tuition, room, and board... and laptop. <<<<</p>

<p>It's funny that you should say this because when my son took the scholarship, all he could think about was getting that laptop!! :) </p>

<p>BTW....they gave him an awesome Dell laptop - top of the line, fully loaded, professional grade. When he received it, we went online to find out what it would have cost if we had bought it, and it would have cost around around 2700 - certainly not a cheap model. It included a 3 year on-site warranty and this software that is like "lowjack"... If the computer is lost or stolen , it has some kind of GPS-like signal that will let you know where it is.</p>

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<p>Somehow I doubt donors are tracking the difference between #83 and #89. Most donor pitches I've heard are related to plans by the college, not the end-game. Donors hand over money to help increase financial aid, new buildings, new programs. Many others offer support for their institution, without condition. It's likely the latter where OOS merit awards are coming from - unappropriated donor funds, that the college could use for any number of purposes, but in all their reason chose to offer OOS merit awards instead of need-based aid, new professor or any number of projects. It's the schools (and students and parents) that care deeply about the rankings. (But the balance of serving students vs. playing rankings games is another topic)</p>

<p>I strongly object to your suggestion that a school must rise in rankings before considering the needs of their students. There's at least a half-dozen colleges, ranked below UAlabama, that have taken steps to support their neediest students by limiting loans or offering tuition discounts. And one of those, Arizona State, made US News 'up and coming' list whereas Alabama did not. </p>

<p>Alabama's in-state tuition is only cheap in comparison to the northeast. It's on par with neighboring states.
Still rather revolting that poor part-time students and non-honors students are being charged 12% more this year, the same year that well-off kids from out of state are being awarded huge tuition discounts.</p>

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<p>ferryboat10: "I strongly object to your suggestion that a school must rise in rankings before considering the needs of their students. There's at least a half-dozen colleges, ranked below UAlabama, that have taken steps to support their neediest students by limiting loans or offering tuition discounts. And one of those, Arizona State, made US News 'up and coming' list whereas Alabama did not."</p>

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<p>D just got a letter from ASU: as a NMSF, she receives $10,500 per year for four years if she applies and is accepted $42,000 ... If she becomes NMF, the merit aid is another $50,000 in addition. D talked to rep who confirmed.</p>

<p>Earlier I mentioned that many universities offer NM incentives. I was thinking of ASU and yes the offer made d take a look at them. Taking a look made her notice that ASU has a strong program in her major. Never would have known if ASU hadn't made an offer that made her explore it further.</p>

<p>The President of ASU's response (similar to JL50ish's comments):</p>

<p>National</a> Merit Scholars Help Move ASU Forward | Office of the President</p>

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<p>Ideally, Alabama and other schools, would be following Arizona State's lead. Rewarding merit to spur better classes AND helping poor students with loan caps and tuition discount programs. All without jacking tuition up double digits in one year - remaining one of the best bargains for Arizona residents and OOS (even if not NM candidates).</p>

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<p>Isn't U of Alabama known as a big party school? Son is interested in comp sci & would probably qualify for some of the auto-scholarships but we were scared away by the super-party rep (at least I was, lol, he--not so much) and also the parochial feel that I hear it has. I could be wrong....?</p>

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<p>D got same letter from Alabama due to her NMSF. However she has a 3.4 at a VERY prestigious high school and will have 12 AP's before graduating. Does anyone have any knowledge of them making exceptions to the 3.5 rule?</p>

<p>I contacted two sources at UA and got very different answers.</p>

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<p>I contacted two sources at UA and got very different answers. <<<<</p>

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<p>My son accepted the UA NMF scholarship. He is a sophomore there.</p>

<p>I don't think the 3.5+ GPA rule applies to NMF scholarship (see below) </p>

<p>But, in case it does, does your d's school "weigh" AP courses? If they do, UA will accept weighted scores. And they will include all grades - even PE, religion classes, and any other classes that other univs often exclude in their GPA formulas.</p>

<p>BTW... the housing does include the choice of Honors Res halls at no extra charge (even tho honors housing is more expensive then regular halls.)</p>

<p>From the UA website>>></p>

<p>All National Merit and Achievement Finalists will receive: (Note: NO MENTION of GPA!)</p>

<p>Value of tuition in-state or out of state for 4 years
4 years of on-campus housing at regular room rate* (based on assignment by Housing and Residential Communities)<br>
$1,000 per year University National Merit/Achievement Scholarship for 4 years
One time allowance of $2,000 for use in summer research or international study (after completing one year of study at UA)
Laptop computer** </p>

<p>I think whoever you spoke with may have thought that you were either asking about the other merit scholarships (those do require a 3.5+ GPA), or they thought you were asking about needed a 3.5 GPA to keep the scholarship (while in college - which I believe you do). </p>

<p>Only the National Merit Hispanic scholarship has a GPA and SAT/ACT req't: This scholarship package is also available for National Hispanic Scholars with at least a 32 ACT or 1400 SAT score (critical reading and mathematics) and a 3.7 cumulative GPA. </p>

<p>Again... I don't think there is a GPA req't for the NMF scholarship - only for the OTHER merit scholarships....</p>

<p>If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask... I've become quite a UA expert with one child there and another going next year. LOL </p>

<p>If you need reassurance... please contact Carolyn Rogers at UA Scholarships<br>
(800) 933-BAMA (2262) </p>

<p>Make sure that it is understood that you want info regarding NMF scholarships, and I would certainly state that there is no mention of a GPA requirement on the website for NMF scholarships. I would definitely speak with Carolyn and/or get confirmation in writing from HER at <a href="mailto:scholarships@ua.edu">scholarships@ua.edu</a><a href="I%20would%20put%20her%20name%20in%20the%20email%20subject%20line%20to%20make%20sure%20that%20she%20is%20the%20one%20who%20will%20respond.">/email</a></p>

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<p>My son goes to UA, and he is NOT the party type (rather shy and very studious). Like all large unis (usually with the added "Greek element), there is a "party element" to the school. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a large uni with a strong football program that doesn't have a "party rep". However, that does not mean that serious students cannot thrive at such as school.</p>

<p>HOWEVER.... I believe the school has implemented a rather clever way to prevent the "less party-minded and more studious students" from being negatively affected in any way by those who like to "party hardy". UA campus has all the frats, sororities, athletes dorms and some of the regular dorms on the south side of campus. It has all the honors dorms, the "subject minded dorms" (nursing, German, engineering, etc) dorms, some "regular dorms" and other "living/learning" dorms on the north side of campus. The students in the Honors dorms each have their own private room (each suite has 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, 1 living room, & 1 kitchenette.) These "northern" dorms have their own computer labs, study rooms, lounge areas, game rooms, etc. That way, those who want to avoid the "toga parties" and football tailgating, etc, can easily do so. Although any student can eat at any dining hall or eating venue, the "northern residents" tend to eat in the northern dining halls, and the "southern residents" tend to eat in southern dining halls. There are also dining halls and "food courts" in the center of campus. </p>

<p>I have been in my son's honors dorm on a Saturday night, and I was surprised to see how quiet the entire residence hall was. Kids were visiting each other in their suites, they were playing Guitar Hero and such, but there wasn't the loud craziness that you see in "sit coms" or in the movies. The honors dorms are pretty quiet, and since each kid has a private room, it is easy to just shut the door and study.</p>

<p>I don't know what you mean by "parochial feel"? Do you think that it is some kind of "bible belt ultrachristian school"? Do you think that non-southerners and/or nonChristians would feel out of place?</p>

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<p>ferryboat10 notes,"I strongly object to your suggestion that a school must rise in rankings before considering the needs of their students"</p>

<p>Response: oh c'mon. Schools are businesses. They want to attract more applicants, better students and more professors. Moreover, if they could, they also want to attract more high paying students. Using merit aid to attract top kids in order to raise their scores has worked in MANY places such as Wash U St. Louis and Carnegie Mellon. </p>

<p>In addition, generally SAT scores and high GPA have a positive corelation with economic upbringing. Thus, many of these merit kids come from well-to-do parents and thus, create well to do alumni that donate money!</p>

<p>Aid for poor students might be morally more beneficial but frankly doesn't do as much for the school. In fact, attracting top students and faculty using merit money has been so beneficial to schools that have tried it in the past that I am surprised more schools don't participate in this academic arms race.</p>

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<p>Ferryboat....</p>

<p>Going to one's state's flagship uni is not some kind of God-given "right." No one has the "right" to a free college education, room, board, books, fees, etc, at the flagship of one's state. It's not like the flagship U is the only college in the state. Alabama has many state owned university and colleges - many of which are "very affordable with F/A and/or scholarships, and are "close to home" so dorms and meal plans are not needed. If a "low income" student "stats" are low, then perhaps he shouldn't be at the Flagship U (he/she may not even have the test scores, GPA, and course requirements to be accepted to UA). This is America, not some socialist country. It's when we act like socialists, we end up causing more harm than good - such as admitting students who don't have the stats only to have them fail within the year because they can't keep up. Such students might have done "just fine" or have even excelled at their regional state U, but instead, social engineers like to "stick them in flagships" (so that the social engineers can feel good) and then they stare at their navels when these kids flunk out and become dejected. </p>

<p>I didn't have "rich" parents. I didn't even have "well off" parents. I came from a working class home with 7 children. I went to my local UC university so that I could live at home. I didn't demand that UC Berkeley ( the flagship of my home state) provide me with free tuition, room, board, books, fees, etc. I used my federal grant and work-study job to help pay my way at my local UC. I didn't whine then, and I wouldn't whine now, that the state needed to do anything to make sure that UC Berkeley was affordable to me - because there were other places that I could go to school</p>

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<p>I would much rather see a school lavish a few dollars on great merit aid for excellent students than watch how many of them blow millions more on recruiting and "buying" athletes for their football team. Stop whining about merit aid for education (isn't that what college is REALLY for?) when you should really be complaining about taxpayer dollars being spent on athletes and athletic programs.</p>

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<p>How did you come to the conclusion that low-income students do not earn their admissions spots? That's quite absurd.</p>

<p>When the COA is $18K and the maximum Pell grant (0 EFC) covers ~25% of that, that leaves ~$13K for the poorest student's families to fund. And it's not much better for the lower middle class.</p>

<p>It doesn't take a socialist to say they need some support (beyond the 2.5% of UA grants/ships offers now in respect to need). They're already disadvantaged from the merit side because of opportunities available to richer students. They're further disadvantaged financially by not qualifying for private loans, having poor and unhelpful family friends and grandparents, and their family losing their part-time wages.
Without help, from Alabama or other sources, many of these students can not attend UA. It's not good for the UA (or society) for qualified students can not attend without
1. maxing out all possible merit aid, in competition with all students (largely inadequate to meet full need of the poorest students)
2. taking on maximum loans (how likely are they to return to their communities? become teachers? social workers? academics? donate to their college to make it rise in the rankings?)
3. living at home or working long hours (thus not participating in creating a positive learning environment at UA)</p>

<p>Many schools have shown by supporting poorer and middle class students, they can increase their reputations. There are many stellar students coming out of these populations that might otherwise seek out more supportive privates. Colleges need not merely seek out students through merit aid, but also offer qualifying students of all incomes fair access to education.</p>

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<p>JL50ish--thanks for that info. Maybe son should apply after all.</p>

<p>By parochial--I think I read something (maybe on a college review site?) that said a lot of kids there were from the local area and hung together w/people they had known from HS, etc. Maybe more 'clique-ish' is what I thought. Perhaps the welcome to a northerner might also be part of that question re: parochial? Son is Christian so that's not an issue re: bible belt (I think).</p>

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<p>ferryboat:<br>
One other thing to remember about Alabama is that they have a Prepaid Tuition PLan for alabama residents. We got that for our son when he was in grade 3..if i remember correctly we paid about 100 per month over 5 years (total was about 6K) and he has fully paid tuition at ANY school in AL for 4 years.
Our problem is that our son doesnt want to go instate. His stats, gpa, EC, ACT etc would put him in a competitive place for admission to Ivy's etc. But under FAFSA, we qualify for NO financial aid. We cant afford a debt of 200K for 4 years of undergrad, especially knowing his goals are Phd or MD/Phd after undergrad. So i also see that there is a place for merit aid...if a child has worked hard through his schooling to excel why shouldnt he be rewarded regardless of his parents finances. So for him, his dream schools are off our list... I feel so bad for him.. we have already put 4 kids through college, have 2 more to go, his Dad is 65 (we cant keep getting student loans at this age) and the credit problems are going to get worse (14 institutions stopped granting students loans last week i believe) Our business has been running at 58% for the past 2 months but our bills have not gone down!</p>

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<p>jolynne >>> By parochial--I think I read something (maybe on a college review site?) that said a lot of kids there were from the local area and hung together w/people they had known from HS, etc. Maybe more 'clique-ish' is what I thought. Perhaps the welcome to a northerner might also be part of that question re: parochial? Son is Christian so that's not an issue re: bible belt (I think). <<<</p>

<p>UA is located in a college town - Tuscaloosa. Therefore, only a few "local" kids go there. The school draws the best students from the entire state, plus all 49 other states, plus numerous foreign countries. I'm not suggesting that every student there is the "only one" from his/her high school, but many students are the "only one" from his high school. When I attended "Bama Bound" (a 2 day parent & student orientation), I met students from various cities and states, and they were the only student from their town or school.</p>

<p>What I meant about "bible belt" is that some think that UA might be kind of "fundamentalist" college - it is definitely not. Surrounding the school's immediate boundary are churches (and a synagogue) for every religion/denomination. As a Catholic, I was happy to see that a full parish (not just some small school chapel) was right across the street from the school. As a Catholic, I was very concerned that my son might experience some prejudices. Not only has that not been the case, but there are many Catholics on campus, and many of the profs (and the associate provost) are Catholics (Because the students and profs come from all over the country, including many Ivies).</p>

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<p>parent56....>>> One other thing to remember about Alabama is that they have a Prepaid Tuition PLan for alabama residents. We got that for our son when he was in grade 3..if i remember correctly we paid about 100 per month over 5 years (total was about 6K) and he has fully paid tuition at ANY school in AL for 4 years. <<<</p>

<p>I think with PACT (prepaid tuition program) you can use that money (@6000/yr) towards any school, anywhere (so it's not lost). I know that that is not enough to cover a private or oos tuition for another state school. </p>

<p>But... if his stats are strong enough, he might be able to snag an oos scholarship and you can used the PACT to cover room costs.</p>

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<p>jl50ish. we tried that with our son who graduated hs in 2002. he went to school in nyc. the prepaid plan offered $100 per credit for an out of state school. and if we touched it, it was over. so we transferred it to our youngest son. (hadnt set his up yet)</p>

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<p>ferryboat...>>How did you come to the conclusion that low-income students do not earn their admissions spots? That's quite absurd.</p>

<p>When the COA is $18K and the maximum Pell grant (0 EFC) covers ~25% of that, that leaves ~$13K for the poorest student's families to fund. And it's not much better for the lower middle class.</p>

<p>It doesn't take a socialist to say they need some support (beyond the 2.5% of UA grants/ships offers now in respect to need). They're already disadvantaged from the merit side because of opportunities available to richer students. They're further disadvantaged financially by not qualifying for private loans, having poor and unhelpful family friends and grandparents, and their family losing their part-time wages.
Without help, from Alabama or other sources, many of these students can not attend UA. It's not good for the UA (or society) for qualified students can not attend without
1. maxing out all possible merit aid, in competition with all students (largely inadequate to meet full need of the poorest students)
2. taking on maximum loans (how likely are they to return to their communities? become teachers? social workers? academics? donate to their college to make it rise in the rankings?)
3. living at home or working long hours (thus not participating in creating a positive learning environment at UA)</p>

<h2>Many schools have shown by supporting poorer and middle class students, they can increase their reputations. There are many stellar students coming out of these populations that might otherwise seek out more supportive privates. Colleges need not merely seek out students through merit aid, but also offer qualifying students of all incomes fair access to education.<<<<</h2>

<p>Ferryboat... it is a well known fact that many low income students (no matter where they are from) often do not have the stats to qualify for the top schools in their states. I'm from Calif and that state struggles every year with the fact that too many low-income students (often minorities (not Asians)) do NOT have the stats to qualify for admission to the UC system. That is why the UC's have a very low admission rate for non-Asian minorites, and the UC schools are dominated by Asians and whites. </p>

<p>This unfortunate situation exists because such kids often go to schools where apathy towards learning exists, and/or their own families do not support getting high grades and going to a top college. So, not only is my thesis "not absurd," it's a fact.</p>

<p>Again, UA is hardly the only uni in the state. A poorer student can go to his local state uni for about $5-6k per year and have most/all of that covered by grants, scholarships, and work/study. </p>

<p>And again, students do not have some kind of God-given or Constitution-given right to a free education at the flagship school of his state, including room and board. I was't given one in CA, my husband wasn't given one in his home state, yet we still managed to succeed. You are under the mistaken impression that students who go to their local state school are somehow doomed to be low-income earners. That is hardly the case.</p>

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<p>There is a reason for minimum standards (SAT scores, grades, etc) at all colleges and universities. If a student cannot provide proof of those minimums, how in the world are they going to be successful in coursework and graduate from that college?</p>