New Bama numbers

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Alabama
21

Are you familiar with the intense competition in the late 19th century between UA, Auburn and UNA for the Land Grant federal status? Political support for a land grant in North Alabama was divided between UA and UNA, so Auburn won that designation. It didn’t matter that UA had the first Engineering school in the state. So Auburn had an advantage over UA that was pretty limiting to the latter, especially given that UA was almost completely destroyed by the Northern agression in the battle between the states.

Still, I understand that many Auburn people in the early 20th century believed it was never given the same level of funding that UA received. Nevertheless, with its Ag, Pharmacy, and Vet schools, Auburn today receives far more funding per student than UA.

The school with the state name has never really had the chance to live up to its full potential, till Dr Witt came to UA and realized that potential. I think the image of the state of Alabama is more dependent on the success of UA than it is on the success of Auburn. It hurts Alabama when UA is not held in high regard. But maybe that 9 year string of losses in the 70s helps explains the attitude among Auburn people, and also helps explain why Auburn focused more on raising its academic profile in the 70s and 80s. :wink:

22

What 9 year string of losses - did you switch to football? Really? If you are pulling that out for comparison - I give, just like the scholarship money - won’t go there…that is where there is a difference and I wouldn’t argue either of those points. Academic percentage numbers that are so close and move up and down and are swayed by volume of applicants and the large difference in money offered, to me, does not represent the academic value. It appears like you are constantly justifying your school choice. That I don’t get and I’ll try to be more aware of the Auburn attitude, haven’t run into that yet.

23

Based on our experiences at UF, were many times, over the years, we’ve hit a wall with freshman enrollment…

At some point UA will have to cap incoming freshman enrollment, and grow enrollment through increased student retention, transfer students and grad student enrollment.

A university is limited in resources, housing, class/lab space, instructors, etc. There is a reason other schools don’t continue to increase their (freshman) enrollments. Can you bring in 8,000 freshman? Sure, but you’ll have to lease housing off campus (something UA is already doing, I believe), have more (and larger) class sessions at night, hirer more adjuncts, use even more undergraduates as TAs, more lines at the labs…

I would think UA is close to the point of saying the first “phase” of Dr. Witt’s plan has worked, and it’s time to move on to the second phase. Otherwise we may start comparing UA to schools like UCF (52+K undergraduates, 7,800+ grad’s).

24

The administration, via Judy Bonner, has said that the growth will now primarily occur through Grad programs. But that has yet to happen, and as of this Fall, seems to be going in the opposite direction.

Threeofthree: I mentioned the string of losses. 1973-1981 Auburn lost nine in a row. I think that lit a fire under Auburn people. They took pride in their academics when they couldn’t have so much pride in their football. It wasn’t a put down.

CyclonesGrad: Actually, Auburn does give generous scholarships too, just not as many, and not quite as generous. I know that Auburn has increased its scholarships in recent years, probably in reaction to UA, but yes, they aren’t quite as generous. Auburn is in the middle of a 1 billion capital campaign, so it might be able to offer more scholarships in the near future.

25

Auburn caps National Merit OOS Tuition scholarships at $20,000 per year - a deal breaker for us - even though Auburn looks like a great university.

26

@nerdyparent Auburn’s OOS Presidential award is also a deal-breaker for many…


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Presidential Scholarship Requires a 33-36 ACT or 1440-1600 SAT score and a minimum 3.5 high school GPA for consideration. Awarded at $64,000 over four years ($16,000 per year).

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Needing an ACT 33+, plus then only getting a set amount $16k per year (no adjustments for inflation), means that an OOS student is only getting about 50-60% of tuition covered over 4 years…with the fair estimate that by the time this year’s HS seniors are college seniors, OOS tuition will be $30k+. The net cost comparison (Auburn vs Bama) becomes very striking…about $30k per year vs $12k. Over 4 years, that’s a $60k+ difference.


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Most of the kids I have met at Auburn fell in love with the school and the academics and the kids my son hangs around want to be engineers and most of them turned down full tuition at UA to attend Auburn Engineering. It's a great school with awesome kids and a lovely campus and a fantastic marching band and that's why they selected Auburn!

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And the exact same words have been said except substituting the word “Auburn” for “Alabama”…

BTW…
Contrary to what was suggested, I don’t think Bama is in danger of soon outgrowing their very large eng’g facilities with over 1million sq ft of STEM space. The facility was designed to accommodate a large CoE.

I do think that at some point, Bama may have to limit who can be a frosh eng’g student. Right now, any student, no matter their math scores, can declare eng’g as their major as an incoming frosh. Maybe those with inadequate math scores should have to “prove” themselves by taking a math class at a local CC prior to enrollment. I know that Bama has to sensitive to being too restrictive since some of the rural kids had inadequate K-12 education.

27

@Atlanta68 I went by what I saw on the AU website regarding scholarships. There is no way my kids could attend AU even though they have excellent stats because we are OOS from IL.

The issue going on in AL is that there are two schools competing with each other to be the flagship in all academic areas. That is really counter-productive from a state position as a whole. There are reallt only two choices that make sense from a state budget perspective:

  1. 1 state Flagship school, i.e. UW, UM-TC, UIUC, OSU
  2. 2 high profile schools w/one strong LA and one strong Sciences, i.e. Iowa/Iowa State, Kansas/Kansas State, Indiana/Purdue, Oklahoma/Oklahoma State

This way resources are concentrated at one major university for each field. Right now AL is “stuck in the middle” trying to support two flagship universities with competing programs.

@threeofthree What do you mean by the below comment? I am not sure.


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Academic percentage numbers that are so close and move up and down and are swayed by volume of applicants and the large difference in money offered, to me, does not represent the academic value. <<<<<

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I agree that the academic numbers are basically the same between AU and UA. Are you saying the academic value is better at AU than UA? If so, how do you come to that conclusion? I am not backing either but being from the north I do not understand your perspective.

28

There is, and always has only been, ONE flagship in the state…The University of Alabama.

That has never been in question.

29

If there is only one flagship in AL, why does the state fund a second school as heavily? They do not do that in Illinois, Minnesota, Ohio, Wisconsin.

Is that true or are you protecting UA? Do not get me wrong. I have investigated UA and an very impressed. I just do not understand the funding which creates rivalry and wasted resources between the two schools.

Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota have flagships and then second tier schools that are less costly for student and state.

30

CyclonesGrad, I addressed this issue of which school was the designated flagship to some degree in a post I made to this thread last night. I talked about the historical battle between UA and Auburn over state funding. UA was the first state university, and I believe its the only school mentioned in the state constitution. However, due to division in North Alabama, UA was not able to win the Land Grant status in the late 19th century. The Land Grant status went to a politically united Auburn lobby. It is what has allowed Auburn to dominate UA over the years in terms of its science and engineering rep, even though UA had the first engineering program in the state and one of the first in the nation. See this for more detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI2A09ftlPo It is a video of a doctoral student at Auburn giving a talk on the UA/Auburn academic rivalry. Interesting if you like history.

So, the state of Alabama has been conflicted over which school to elevate. There is the state flagship school in Tuscaloosa, and then there is the state’s land grant school in Auburn. See the conflict? UA receives significantly less state funding, not just per pupil, but in actual numbers, relative to Auburn. Auburn’s Vet, Ag, and Pharmacy schools bring them a whole lot of state money. Traditionally, Auburn had the bigger Engineering program. The state funding formula richly rewards schools for their STEM programs, so UA would be stupid not to get in on the action. UA MUST grow its Engineering and other STEM programs if it ever wants to gain as much state funding as Auburn receives. UA should not be ashamed to do what it has to do, to fully live up to the original intention of the people who created it as THE state university. That is why it is willing to court out of state students so much, for the state government has so far not shown a willingness to adequately fund higher education.

31

You just mentioned 4 states. There are OTHER states that similarly-fund more than one state school.

Is there a big funding disparity between UAz & ASU? UT and TAMU? Berkeley and UCLA? Iowa and Iowa St? UGa and GT? (UGa is the flagship, not GT) USoCarolina and Clemson? (USC is the flagship, not Clemson)

The state well-funds UAB as well, because its campus has the med school. Bama has the law school. Auburn has the vet school and Arch school.

Some states have different philosophies. The state of Alabama has many, many public univs so that students can often commute to their local school. In Calif, the philosophy was much the same…scatter UCs and CSUs across the state so that residents would have easy access.

Other states do things differently. They focus on one school to be the only star…and the other schools are distant 2nds, 3rds, etc.

32

Well, your point is heard and understood. However, I do not think AL has the same resources (or tax level) as CA. Texas has more resources than AL, I believe.

Not so familiar with USoC/Clemson and what they stand for regarding specialties. UGa/GT fit the mold I mentioned before regarding one school being good LA and the other being good technical, no different than Indiana/Purdue, Kansas/K State

I went to Iowa State so I can tell you there is funding disparity between Iowa/Iowa State by program. Iowa has more money for business (Trippie school) and Biological/Medical sciences (university hospital system also) and Iowa State has more money for engineering and vet school.

What I am saying is that both UA and AU are going after engineering, business, etc. That does not make sense to me. That means duplication of resources at a high level.

AL well funds UAB for Health areas. I am sure that general engineering and LA is not as well funded as AU or UA. No different than IL funds UI Chicago pre-Med and Med school with a very light pre-Med funding at UIUC. IL funds engineering lighter at UIC than at UIUC; same as AL approach.

Are Berkeley and UCLA really equal on everything. I believe Berkeley is better at Engineering/business and UCLA is best at Health Sciences (UCLA/Ronald Reagan Medical Center). Not really familiar with CA system. Will defer to you since you, mom2collegekids, have lived there. Am I missing something there?

33

<<<
What I am saying is that both UA and AU are going after engineering, business, etc. That does not make sense to me. That means duplication of resources at a high level.


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Perhaps if the state of Alabama wasn’t home to the second largest research park in the nation, the state would not be doing this. Prior to Bama growing its CoE, the state could not supply enough high-tech people to Cummings Research Park.

I imagine that it’s much easier to recruit high tech employees to work at CRP if they’ve already been living in Alabama via their undergrad.

34

@CyclonesGrad I understand your point, and it’s true the state (any state) is allocating funds in a way to create “centers of excellence”. As states grew in population over the years, they’ve been able to add additional med schools, public universities, etc.

Building up UA’s COE was an important step (as viewed by the University) to becoming a major research university. UA was able to get much of the initial funding thru federal earmarks (Sen Shelby), and other funding through donations and debt. State funding hasn’t been a major driver for the COE’s expansion.

35

Thanks, that makes more sense now that I understand that UA’s mission has changed. Also in light of what mom2college kids said above about Cummings Research Park.

They are going to keep the undergrad population where it is and go after more grad students. They are light there for a major research university. Of course, you need to build the infrastructure to attract the grad students. Kind of a chicken and egg thing.

From what I hear, UA has been very aggressive on infrastructure over the last few years. Now time to get the bodies.

36

There is room for all the colleges in AL that are doing well. A lot of OOS students are also coming in. AU is regionally pulling students from that geographic area. UA is pulling more students in at a National level, with the use of regional recruiters, scholarships, PR. The trend for N AL students at my students’ school and area schools has been heavier going to AU - I think a lot go where their friends go, older siblings have gone, even parents have gone. My neighbors, both engineers educated at Vanderbilt, liked UA better than AU but their son chose AU. Since his younger sister is doing something agriculture related, she is also at AU. My kids and I have been on AU campus a lot for music things, and never had a strong pull there. One DD liked UAB from the get go and one has always wanted to go to UA.

No need to be concerned for duplication of UG programs that are not hurting each other. UA’s eng or business programs are not hurting AU’s or vice versa.

For many years UAHuntsville had to offer a Master Science Management degree instead of a MBA because AL A & M University (history black land grant school) had a MBA program. They have changed it probably in the last decade, since they had the MSM program for a lot of years instead of the MBA, but in AL, it is much harder to ‘duplicate’ some of the graduate programs. An exception may be UG bio-medical engineering, and that is at UAB due to the medical facilities there and the best place for the program.

I have a nephew that graduated from Iowa State in ChE. I have another nephew at U of Iowa. Iowa also has U of N Iowa, a lesser known school from outsiders. Iowa has 31 colleges, many are small private, but they are there, doing fine. Texas is big enough for all the colleges that are there. TAMU has grown a lot in facilities and with students, in part because they have open land around it; UT is constrained in the city of Austin. TAMU has the largest vet school in the nation, but only in the 1980’s did it add a medical school. At the start of the medical school, it was easier getting into their medical school than their vet school - but students in their medical school have done well on all performance standards.

I know a couple of AL students are going to Clemson - one went there specifically for the packaging engineering degree they offer (not sure if that allows in-state tuition with the common market). Another is going as the mom graduated from there in engineering - haven’t talked to them about specifics. One student who could have had full tuition scholarship at AU or UA is going to UF and paying full OOS costs - her dad graduated from there and the parents are willing to shell out the money (she is a business major).

I know a few recent HS grads that were NMS - one is at Emory, one is at Vanderbilt. One went to TAMU, but would have gone to UA as a second choice (both parents graduated from TAMU). One (who was also Val of class) took a UAH Platinum Award and 4 other scholarships at UAH. One is at AU (they awarded her 10 scholarships, probably a record, starting with the National Scholars Presidential Scholarship, and down to regional winner athletic scholarship - she is also Hispanic; her older sis graduated from AU). That family traveled all over the country with the older sis and student/parents chose AU. That family has another student attending Samford U on scholarship.

As people know that are looking at OOS public schools, a more limited number are more welcoming of OOS students - for admission and merit awards. No need to pull apart what is going on with the colleges in AL. It is what it is.

37

I was stunned to just learn that Alabama was recruiting today in Arizona at my son’s high school, BASIS Scottsdale, USNews’ number-two-rated high school. But it’s very smart. 32 out of 84 in the senior class are National Merit semifinalists and another 27 will be NM commended.

I had tried to talk to my son before about Alabama, but he had zero interest. He came back today with a very nice glossy brochure and the knowledge that he would qualify for a Presidential Scholarship, plus an engineering scholarship. He was also very impressed too with the presentation. He is currently filing out his on-line application and asked me to send in his AP scores and his ACT results.

It looks like a visit may be in our future.

38

Yay! Roll Tide

39

@CyclonesGrad - no I don’t think AU is better than UA academically or vice versa…the ranking numbers are pretty close to meaningless to me - some are bought with cold hard cash (scholarships bring in the high stats) others with volume of applicants (# of students applying for selectivity). Academically, I’d place the schools about equal. My comments were just a reaction to repeated threads comparing rankings, and ACTs and SATs and finding a way to make them mean something any which way from Sunday when there really isn’t any need…the numbers are good enough where they are on both sides of Birmingham. There is a different “air” when you go on the two campuses and I think the students find their fit at one or the other.

@Atlanta68 - I’ll keep an eye out for that Auburn attitude because this may be a mirror 2012 season! :wink:

40

I know that UA and AU each have rabid fans/supporters/boosters, as well they should, but as an out-of-stater, I’m of the opinion that ‘a rising tide (pardon the pun!) lifts all boats.’ Healthy competition, in academics and on the athletic field, are good for both schools, and great for the State of Alabama.

I believe AU and UA are both excellent schools seeking to serve the people of the State of Alabama as best they can. I hope we can all remain respectful of each other in these threads. Both schools got served up a big ol’ slice of Humble Pie yesterday, so perhaps it’s time for a little humility all around. :slight_smile: