<p>I hope undergrad, talking about grad school is unnecessary because most students here are discussing about undergrad, and also because grad schools are so complicated to speak about since theres no way to compare them side-by-side in terms of student strength.</p>
<p>SamLee, When I was applying to school, the SAT avg at Colgate was higher than Middlebury, Northwestern, Georgetown and within 20pts of Cornell and Penn. I haven't said Colgate is at the same level as Cornell, but they're close enough that you can accomplish the same things from both and could understand why someone would choose Colgate over Cornell. I'd say about 1/3 of the people at Colgate who applied to Cornell were accepted (so it's not like it's unheard of to choose Colgate over Cornell and appreciate in retrospect how much more suited Colgate was for me than Cornell). </p>
<p>I've never seen anyone at any of my firms or grad school from Northwestern UG, but just see on here that people really seem to view it highly in comparison to when I was applying. I think I'm also perplexed how in the name of a couple spots on the rankings (which will change next year anyway) has people travelling across the country vs a more reasonable 3-5 hour drive from their home to attend school. I can't see flying or driving 12+ hours from somewhere in the northeast to go to Northwestern over similarly selective schools like Georgetown, JHU, Colgate, Middlebury, Tufts that would be much closer to get to. People seem to treat it as if they're indifferent to campus location in addition to environment.</p>
<p>you're all fools, to be an ivy means a lot more than to be an amazing school academically.
It must be prestigious. Sorry MIT. It must be old. Im going to be honest. it has to have been around for a long time. It must as well be significant academically, atheletically (SORRY OBERLIN), it must be hard to get in, and it must support its students with amazing facilities.</p>
<p>Duke, Stanford. Those would probably be the next two on the list. Most LAC's would never fit into this category. Although theyre amazing schools theyre no ivies. I know SO many amazing people who have never heard of Rice, Northwestern, Davidson, Tufts etc. It must have strong NAME recognition. This is my two cents.</p>
<p>In fact, most technical institutes, MIT, Caltech, are not diverse enough in their student population, nor in their offered majors. Youre all forgetting the power of the word IVY.</p>
<p>gellino,</p>
<p>You must have applied to schools before the 90s. I don't know what grad school you went to and how long ago you went. NU is one of the most represented in Wharton's student body.</p>
<p>Name recognition? That's fungible. I think brand is more important. Most of the NESCAC colleges + Swarthmore have significant branding.</p>
<p>gellino,</p>
<p>As for you not seeing anyone at any of your firms from NU UG, keep in mind a lot of them stay in Chicago. Look at the following:</p>
<p>Major Employers for Northwestern grads – Graduating Class of 2005
Three or more students accepted positions with these firms. (source: NU UCS)</p>
<p>ABN AMRO
Accenture
Allstate Insurance Company
American Airlines, Inc.
Argonne National Laboratory
Bain & Company
Beghou Consulting
Booz Allen & Hamilton
Boston Consulting Group
Deloitte Consulting
DiamondCluster International
Epic Systems Corporation
General Electric
General Mills
Goldman Sachs
Harris Nesbitt
Hewitt Associates
Huron Consulting Group
IBM
JP Morgan Chase*
Kraft Foods
Lehman Brothers
L.E.K. Consulting
Marakon Associates
McKinsey & Company
McMaster-Carr Supply Company
Medtronic
Mercer Management Consulting
Merrill Lynch
Microsoft
Morgan Stanley
Morningstar, Inc.
Northern Trust Corporation
Northrop Grumman Corporation
Philips (Royal Philips Electronics)
PRTM (Pittiglio, Rabin, Todd, and McGrath)
Robert W. Baird & Company
SIG (Susquehanna International Group)
Starcom Worldwide
Stockamp & Associates
Target Corporation</p>
<p>Colsen, you're the fool. You're inflating the meaning of the Ivy League. At it's base, it's nothing more than a football conference. And remember, Cornell isn't old. It was founded 140 years ago.</p>
<p>COlsen573,
Your NY location may significantly affect your view of the schools in America. Be proud of your schools in the Northeast, but there are a lot of fine schools in America and you're in danger of being excessively parochial with your statements. </p>
<p>A few facts. First, the 2nd oldest school in the country is W&M. Second, there are plenty of top public and private schools around the country that are "significant academically" and which are not Ivies. Third, in today's athletic world, the Ivy League is not significant athletically. Fourth, I would argue that the "amazing" folks you claim to know aren't that amazing in their knowlegdge of some of the top schools in the country. There are plenty of people in the Southeast who would prefer Davidson to any of the Ivies or Williams/Amherst. Likewise, there are plenty of Texans who you couldn't pay to go to the Northeast for any school, but they know Rice and the great quality that exists there. And Northwestern is a pretty mainstream name so it's hard to imagine anyone with even a modest knowledge of top colleges not knowing about this school. Also, try coming from Brown/Cornell/Penn/Dartmouth/Columbia and competing with a Northwestern grad for a job in Chicago. You'll learn pretty quickly how respected this school is by Midwesterners and how little stock they put into the Ivy League names. </p>
<p>The fact is that these are all great schools (Ivies and non-Ivies) with loads of exceptional students. It's too bad that some people can't seem to accept that there is college excellence in other parts of the country as well and that not all of the people want to come to the NE to go to college or to live.</p>
<p>the ivies are the cream of the crop, everyone agrees on that, but what we must also accept is that depending on what you want to do or what type of education you want to recieve (business, arts, science etc...) there are several that in specific areas on the same level as even the best ivies...for example, the film school of USC (if that is what you are looking for) is unmatched in the ivies, business at NYU is on par with the best ivies and this is the same for many other non-ivy busines programs, foreign relations at georgetown, journalism at northwestern....the options are endless, the fact of the matter is many colleges are ont he same level as the ivies, it all depends on what you want to do....it really ends up coming down to personal choice because if a lot of these non-ivy programs offer ivy level educations it comes down to other factors like location...who wants to go to rhode island (brown) for a great ivy league undergrad program when they can potentially get a very similar program in a better location, like NYC or LA with more opportunities?</p>
<p>Im not saying that there arent better schools or more preferred schools. however they have everything, almost any other school is lacking in SOME category that the ivies have. if youd like, you can name a school and ill tell you it. Prestige, Age, Division I, School Size, Majors Offered, Faculty, Facilities, Name Recognition, Diversity. GOOD LUCK.
Btw i already said that Duke and Stanford fit.</p>
<p>Maybe one or two more.
PS ...Im not saying that I like the ivies.
I plan on applying to 3 of them, and other schools. However, Harvard and Yale, I didnt even consider applying to. I hate those schools. Dont think that i think theyre amazing. Im just defining what makes an ivy for people who dont understand why there arent ivies being added to the list. its not just being a good school. cause otherwise the IVY LEAGUE STATUS would be possible for other schools.</p>
<p>sratman1011,
For your statement,</p>
<p>"the ivies are the cream of the crop, everyone agrees on that"</p>
<p>is your opinion, but I assure that not everyone agrees with that, including me. I accept HYP as the premier academic institutions in the country, but while several of the other Ivies are great schools, they are probably even greater benefactors of their association with HYP. IMO, several other non-Ivy schools that I have mentioned are at the same academic caliber as the "lower Ivies" and certainly their student bodies compare very well. </p>
<p>As for overall experience, I maintain that the Ivies do not offer as strong an overall package as several of the top privates, particularly Stanford and Duke. </p>
<p>COlsen573,
The Ivies don't have everything. They definitely don't have athletics (my spouse is a fanatical college sports fan and laughs at anyone that thinks the Ivies are relevant to big time college sports today). Feel free to compare their athletic programs with Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, and Rice. These schools play in real conferences against some of the best competition in the country and most of these schools have the teams to compete at the highest level in some pretty prominent sports. </p>
<p>A second advantage for these other schools (except for Northwestern) is weather. While everyone is walking around in February in the snow in places like Ithaca and Hanover, these schools are in much warmer climes and playing tennis, softball and frisbee outdoors. Hey, if you like skiing and winter sports, then Ivy winter life can be great, but if you like playing these other springtime sports, then Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt & Rice all have a decidedly better location. </p>
<p>Again, I think Stanford and Duke are in the same academic league with HYP and I think Northwestern, Vanderbilt, and Rice are in the same league with the lower Ivies. All are great schools and can get any student to nearly any job or graduate school that he/she may aspire to.</p>
<p>Vanderbilt isn't in the same category as any of the Ivies. It is more along the lines of Emory and Notre Dame.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A second advantage for these other schools (except for Northwestern) is weather. While everyone is walking around in February in the snow in places like Ithaca and Hanover, these schools are in much warmer climes and playing tennis, softball and frisbee outdoors. Hey, if you like skiing and winter sports, then Ivy winter life can be great, but if you like playing these other springtime sports, then Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt & Rice all have a decidedly better location.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>IM NOT SAYING THEYRE BETTER COLLEGES LOL
IM JUST EXPLAINING WHY THEYRE AN IVY
stop saying im wrong, if i didnt even say that. lol</p>
<p>weather doesnt make you an ivy.</p>
<p>I find it amusing that people who keep belittling the Ivy league nonetheless still keeps their self-promotion by comparing their schools to the Ivies. To what end? It's not like it will convince people who plan to apply to the Ivies that those schools are really bad and that instead they should apply to the posters' alma-mater. And those who won't and can't be bothered with the Ivies anyway had already made up their mind that they will pursue other schools. So who is actually the target of such convincing? The naive?</p>
<p>To put it straight foward...the Ivies are wonderful universities. However, there are hundreds of other amazing schools in this country. Some people may do much better at a non-Ivy than they would at an Ivy. It all depeneds on the environment prefered, how you like to learn, and what you wish to learn.</p>
<p>^ lol no. Amherst has long been considered a top LAC, Stanford and MIT have long been considered just as prestigious as any ivy school, and you're missing WashU on that list. ;)</p>
<p>The “New Ivies” term unfortunately mislabels schools on both sides of this moniker. </p>
<p>For the schools that don’t play in the athletic conference known as the Ivy League, constant comparisons occur to the originals. It is a shame that so many feel a need to compare these schools to the Ivies because they are such strong colleges on their own and don’t need any Ivy comparison to legitimize their standing. The reality is that many of these schools are now at or above the level of several of the Ivies. And many more are far more competitive with the Ivies than at any time before. </p>
<p>The Ivies are also mislabeled being all bunched together in one description but the reality is that they’re all different. While all top academic schools, only HYP are consistently recognized as the premier schools in the country. The five other Ivy League schools likewise have strong reputations, but they benefit greatly from their association with HYP and the prestige that these nonpareil institutions carry (try to imagine if Cornell, U Penn or Brown were not playing sports in the Ivy League and how that would affect their reputation and popularity and public standing). The debate surrounding the five Ivies not named HYP is not dissimilar to the discussion on this thread on how one groups various schools. </p>
<p>Here is how the USNWR Top 20 schools compare in terms of student body quality as measured by average SAT score</p>
<p>HYP (1485) = MIT (1500), Caltech (1525)</p>
<p>Dartmouth (1450) = Stanford (1455), Duke (1450)</p>
<p>Columbia, Brown (1437) = U Chicago (1440), Wash U (1440), Rice (1435)</p>
<p>U Penn (1430) => Northwestern (1410)</p>
<p>Cornell (1385) <=>Johns Hopkins (1395), Emory (1385), Notre Dame (1380), Vanderbilt (1370)</p>
<p>Obviously there is much more to student selection and measurement than SAT scores, but the statistical differences between these schools are really quite small. There are more high quality students today than ever before and they are much more broadly distributed than a decade or two ago. </p>
<p>One other point is to note the geography of all of the Ivies and the non-Ivies. For the twelve non-Ivies, only MIT and Johns Hopkins (is Baltimore more Northeast or mid-Atlantic?) are located in the Northeast. Most Ivy graduates will remain in the Northeast post graduation and their opinions on the Ivy League and other NE schools is constantly reinforced by a New York-centric media that knows these areas best. But the reality is that the country has grown a lot (particularly outside of the Northeast) and the quality has spread. The non-Northeastern colleges suffer from a publicity gap, but the value of their students is every bit as good. And, as previously stated IMO, the undergraduate experience that several of these schools offer is superior to that offered by any of the Ivy League schools.</p>
<p>Great post by Hawkette. The Ivy League are great schools but there is so much more available to top students today. Places like Rice and Emory have long been regarded as "Ivies of the South". They have the endowments and student quality to back it up.
Also, consider engineering. This discipline is the linchpin of the American economy. "New Ivies" like Rensselaer and Carnegie Mellon are easily better than the Ivies with the exception of Cornell and possibly Princeton in this area. They are extremely important schools in their own right.</p>
<p>Hawkette, the point of the article was not to create a new elite <em>group</em> but to note that the number of elite universities is increasing. They include non-Ivies now as well as Ivies. The distance between "first tier" and "second tier" is narrowing. Isn't this exactly what you have been saying?</p>