New rankings - US News & World Report

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>@ForeverAlone‌ </p>

<p>Eh, I’d say that Michigan is not >= UCLA, but its engineering, law, and business programs are somewhat more renowned. Their medical schools are equally ranked and most of their academic programs are about equally ranked on USNWR, with some ranked in UCLA’s favor(Psychology and Math being two such examples) and others in Michigan’s favor(Sociology, political science, and physics).</p>

<p>I don’t know why a lot of people on CC dismiss UCLA in favor of Michigan(Not saying you do, but these new rankings and your mention of the two schools reminded me) so much when UCLA consistently beats Michigan in the USNWR rankings and in some others while Michigan beats UCLA in some others.</p>

<p>But hey, my icon obviously shows how biased I am. :P</p>

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<p>Honestly, though, University of Michigan should be higher up on these rankings and perhaps tied with UCLA. I don’t see why University of Virginia should be tied with UCLA, despite its significantly weaker graduate programs(They’re good, but not for a school that’s ranked #23 in my opinion) while Michigan, a much wealthier school with greater graduate programs is ranked #29.</p>

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<p>@Cayton‌
I already admitted that UMich was worse location wise, and that UMich and UCLA were peers, and that they were definitely at least equivalent. I really don’t know what more satisfaction you could want. </p>

<p>Programs alone
UMich COE + ROSS > UCLA Business Econ + Engineering</p>

<p>Michigan’s endowment is almost 9.5 billion. That helps tremendously for clubs and other external programs. </p>

<p>That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if UCLA placed better for jobs due to a better location.</p>

<p>Both are roughly equal in terms of liberal arts.</p>

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<p>Oh, I disagree with Michigan being worse, location-wise, @ForeverAlone. That’s a matter of taste. Ann Arbor isn’t Detroit. :P</p>

<p>But everything else I more or less agree with.</p>

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<p>@ForeverAlone‌ </p>

<p>Forgot to mention that UCLA seems to beat Michigan(By a somewhat slim margin, but a consistent one nonetheless) in reputation surveys.</p>

<p>I think that’s relevant, but at the end of the day, I guess I’m just splitting hairs.</p>

<p>The real injustice is that Berkeley, UCLA, and Michigan are beaten by quite a few overrated private universities in USNWR rankings , but that’s nothing new.</p>

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<p>Detroit is 40 miles away and has little to do with UMich. I don’t understand why people keep bring it up. Students here are more interested in going to Chicago and Toronto than Detroit anyway.</p>

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<p>“Forgot to mention that UCLA seems to beat Michigan(By a somewhat slim margin, but a consistent one nonetheless) in reputation surveys.”</p>

<p>Isn’t the peer assessments score at USNWR a reputational survey? I believe that score has always been higher for Michigan over UCLA. </p>

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<p>“Their medical schools are equally ranked and most of their academic programs are about equally ranked on USNWR, with some ranked in UCLA’s favor(Psychology and Math being two such examples) and others in Michigan’s favor(Sociology, political science, and physics).”</p>

<p>Without splitting hairs too much, I’d say where UCLA is stronger than Michigan, it is usually by a very slim margin. I believe the same cannot be said the other way in most cases. In other words, Michigan has almost no academic weakness in its offerings. Can UCLA honestly say the same thing?</p>

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<p>"I don’t see why University of Virginia should be tied with UCLA, despite its significantly weaker graduate programs(They’re good, but not for a school that’s ranked #23 in my opinion) while Michigan, a much wealthier school with greater graduate programs is ranked #29.</p>

<p>I believe USNWR is a ranking that was devised to help high school students decide where they should attend college. Most of the school listed above Michigan have no where near Michigan’s pedigree as an academic graduate/research powerhouse. </p>

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<p>@rjkofnovi</p>

<p>Michigan may beat UCLA in the peer assessment score of USNWR, but UCLA consistently beats Michigan in the THE World Reputation Rankings, which surveys actual academics. The USNWR peer assessment surveys are completed by college presidents, and they don’t seem as qualified as the rank-and-file academics surveyed by Times Higher Education in determining which universities are academically stronger. Correct me if I’m wrong.</p>

<p>High school counselors are probably no more or no less qualified than college presidents in determining which schools are the best. With regard to the HS counselor rankings, UCLA beats Michigan by a slim margin, #22 vs. #29.</p>

<p>In just about every major ranking system, UCLA beats Michigan by a slim margin. ARWU, Times Higher Education, USNWR, and even Forbes(As of this year, lol). QS is the only exception, I believe.</p>

<p>With regards to academic weaknesses, you’d have to define that term. But if you mean that to be some field at UCLA that’s weaker relative to its stronger programs, I’d have to say that UCLA is <em>relatively</em> weak at engineering, physics, and biology, ranked at #16, #19, and #18, respectively IIRC. Many of its humanities and social sciences programs are top 10 or 15, and one is #2 in the nation. Compared to these programs, yeah, UCLA’s engineering, physics, and biology programs are “weak.”</p>

<p>But more objectively, it’s hard to say that a #16 ranked engineering program, a #19 ranked biology program, and an #18 ranked physics program are “weak”, though it appears so when compared to Michigan’s(With the exception of bio they’re tied there), I must admit, and at the graduate level, I’d recommend those programs over UCLA’s.</p>

<p>But I do wonder how Michigan, with all of its financial resources, doesn’t tie with or best UCLA in this ranking by USNWR or in most other college ranking systems, especially since its endowment is more than three times larger than UCLA’s. It should be, but it isn’t. Why? I’m genuinely curious.</p>

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<p>I believe this is a huge factor why UCLA ranks higher than Michigan in most of those polls:</p>

<p><a href=“UCLA Is No 1 AAU | Asian American University | GoldSea”>http://goldsea.com/AAU/ucla.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The Asian population and percentage of the student body at UCLA is easily more than double that of Michigan. </p>

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<p>"High school counselors are probably no more or no less qualified than college presidents in determining which schools are the best…’</p>

<p>That remark gave me the best laugh I have had in days. Thanks…</p>

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<p>How did UCLA work its way into this discussion? LOL! Michigan and UCLA are peers academically and reputationally. In the intangibles (endowment, resources, alumni etc…), Michigan has the edge. When it comes to graduate school and career placement, I think both are excellent. </p>

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<p>@rjkofnovi‌ </p>

<p>Can you tell me why college presidents are more qualified to say which colleges are the best, especially since they have something of a conflict of interest in being asked to complete these kinds of surveys?</p>

<p>There’s a reason that people don’t take the USNWR’s peer assessment surveys seriously, you know. Well, actually, there’s multiple, but you get my point, I hope.</p>

<p>As laughable as the idea is to you, high school counselors are really no worse at determining which schools are the best. Even if they were, counselors are, unlike college presidents, unaffected by conflicts of interest in trying to sabotage other universities so that they could promote their own, because they’re not especially affiliated with any universities. </p>

<p>With regards to UCLA’s Asian population, that doesn’t explain why it still does slightly better than Michigan in Forbes(Not taken too seriously, but whatever) and Times Higher Education rankings and reputation rankings.</p>

<p>The link doesn’t even actually show that higher Asian-American enrollment levels are responsible for its slight edge in most ranking systems, including ARWU. Correlation doesn’t equal causation(Look it up if you don’t believe me), and you’re going to have to a better job making your case than that. IN fact, by your logic, UC Berkeley is ranked higher than Michigan in these ranking systems because it as more Asian students than Michigan does. In fact, Berkeley has more Asian students as a percentage of its student population than UCLA. I guess all those Asian students at Berkeley are responsible for its supremacy in public university rankings, right? lol</p>

<p>Interestingly enough, when I was curious about how UCLA was perceived around the world, I did some searching on college confidential threads(A reasonably good source, but not without its flaws), and I noticed that you tend to bash UCLA a lot. You’re almost as bad as UCBChemEgrad, lol. You seem to have something against the school. Am I right or not?</p>

<p>@Alexandre‌ </p>

<p>I’m one of those dreaded UCLA boosters, lol. I responded in this thread to someone else who was comparing UCLA and UMich. Both are indeed excellent universities. I do wish UCLA had Michigan’s money, though. A man can dream, right?</p>

<p>I should reiterate my point that Michigan shouldn’t be at #29 in these USNWR rankings. Although I personally believe UCLA = Michigan, with perhaps the slightest of edges going to UCLA when it comes to reputation, Michigan’s grad programs match UCLA’s and their engineering, business, and law programs are somewhat better. It should be at #23, where UCLA is. I wouldn’t even be upset if it were at #21, between Berkeley and LA. Well, not <em>that</em> upset. :P</p>

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<p>Where reputation is concerned Cayton, it really depends a lot on the demographic. I do not think a school’s reputation can be determined by its ranking. WUSTL has been ranked higher than Brown in virtually all publications. It does not make it more reputable. In most rankings, schools like Wisconsin outperform schools like Dartmouth, yet I do not think it is more reputable. </p>

<p>UCLA has a reputational edge over Michigan among the masses. It has nothing to do with the quality of the schools, but with the name. Any university that has the words Los Angeles or New York or Boston in its name is automatically going to generate a buzz. Any 16 year old would rather tell his friends that he lives in LA than in Michigan. Most impressionable teenager would imagine that life in Hollywood would be way cooler than life in the Rust Belt. But among the corporate and academic elite, I think Michigan has a slight edge over UCLA. That is certainly the case in my experience, although I am sure there are many pockets where UCLA has the edge over Michigan in this domain as well. </p>

<p>As far as rankings go, I agree that the US News is not accurate. </p>

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<p>“Can you tell me why college presidents are more qualified to say which colleges are the best, especially since they have something of a conflict of interest in being asked to complete these kinds of surveys?”</p>

<p>Years of experience in academia, plus most have a Phd. They are just plain smarter. </p>

<p>“There’s a reason that people don’t take the USNWR’s peer assessment surveys seriously, you know.”</p>

<p>Yes, because they ask the opinion of high school counselors and use it in their tallies.</p>

<p>“IN fact, by your logic, UC Berkeley is ranked higher than Michigan in these ranking systems because it as more Asian students than Michigan does.”</p>

<p>Not at all. UCB has a stronger academic program than Michigan and deserves to be ranked higher. It has nothing to do with Asians. Michigan has a stronger academic program than UCLA and does not deserve to be ranked higher, it very well might have everything to do with number Asians attending. </p>

<p>" You seem to have something against the school. Am I right or not?"</p>

<p>I have nothing against UCLA, except those partisans on CC who feel it is academically superior to Michigan. It is not.</p>

<p>“Michigan’s grad programs match UCLA’s and their engineering, business, and law programs are somewhat better. It should be at #23, where UCLA is.”</p>

<p>…and yet it isn’t. Actually Michigan’s grad programs are higher ranked overall than their peers at UCLA. </p>

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<p>@rjkofnovi‌ </p>

<p>With regard to Ph.Ds and experience in academia, I take graduate program rankings more seriously, so USNWR’s program rankings are at least somewhat reliable to me, but having college presidents try and rank each other with such obvious conflicts of interest and no demonstrated knowledge of the overall academic strength of various universities is kind of ridiculous to me. <em>That</em> is the reason people don’t take its peer assessment surveys seriously, not because high school counselor opinions are included. I can provide sources if you don’t believe me.</p>

<p>Hell, I can give you an example of the ridiculousness of the peer assessment surveys. University of Virginia is ranked higher than UNC-Chapel Hill and UCLA, despite the latter two having much stronger graduate programs and having similar student bodies. That alone should cause you to question its credibility.</p>

<p>In other ranking systems, ARWU, QS, and Times Higher Education, for examples, UCLA’s programs mostly do outmatch Michigan’s by a somewhat slim margin, except in engineering. </p>

<p>But it must be because of all those Asians at UCLA and their ability to influence college ranking authorities, even Times Higher Education rankings, a British publication. Sure, that’s a persuasive explanation with lots of evidence that you’ve provided.</p>

<p>@Alexandre‌ </p>

<p>That may be. I’ll admit I don’t have corporate experience and don’t know any of the corporate elite, so I’ll have to defer to you in that regard. In regards to the academic elite, that seems to be different story, at least in regards to the academic surveys, but hey, agree to disagree, right?</p>

<p>It does help that Michigan’s alumni are less inclined to stay in Michigan. UCLA alumni, although found all over the world, seem to stay in southern California for the most part.</p>

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<p>Hmm, I should get out of this forum before other Michigan posters come out of nowhere and ambush me while screaming “GO BLUE.” :)) </p>

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<p>Cayton - all your comments have been very reasonable. You are welcome any time.</p>

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<p>@wayneandgarth‌ </p>

<p>Thanks. I do my best to be civil.</p>

<p>I suppose I should bear in mind what @Alexandre said…UCLA and Michigan are, for all intents and purposes, equal as universities, here and abroad.</p>