<p>I know lol. The the analogy was quite....flattering :)</p>
<p>Ok, so I exaggerated! Sheesh, you people are too intense! ;)</p>
<p>LOL naw it's all good...you are right on this one for sure.</p>
<p>The revealed preference ranking is way better than US News. The funny thing is that I thought US News rankings had a huge impact on student choices. For example, since US News ranks UPenn and Duke so high, I thought students would choose to enroll at Duke and Upenn in higher numbers. However, this was certainly not the case. UPenn and Duke do not even break the top ten in terms of schools that the top students tend to choose. They are ranked #12 and #19 respectively. This is way different than their US News rank of #4 and $5 respectively. I guess students know what the good schools really are regardless of whatever the whimsical editors of US News decide to do?</p>
<p>Are you truly being serious? Have you not read my entire post on the second page? Just because a student does not pick Duke, that does not equate Duke to being a lesser school. There are students I know picking BYU over Harvard and Williams over Princeton. This does not demote the reputation of these schools in any way. These rankings are not one of prestige, and I would not even call them a preference ranking since there are countless other factors in determining final matriculation. Just because I prefer Dartmouth over Columbia, that does not mean I'll end up there for the next four years. What if the aid is not right at Dartmouth? What if I my parents will not allow me to attend? To be honest, I feel slightly exacerbated that you cannot provide proof as to why Penn/Duke do not deserve their rank on Usnews. While I admit, they certainly are not HYPSM, they are right below them with Dartmouth, Cornell, Columbia, Caltech (may be = to HYPSM), Uchic, etc.</p>
<p>Edit: By the way, a lot of kids do not choose Duke because of the location. I would argue that the NE/West has the majority over the South in terms of the number of Ivy Caliber kids, and most are not too thrilled to be spending four years in Durham. Also, what about niche schools that don't recieve too many applicants like Dartmouth, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, etc? They are high caliber schools, but most apply because they are truly serious about getting in. So, when they are accepted, they almost always matriculate. Penn receives thousands of more applications than all of these schools, yet it is ranked so poorly. Can we not take that into account?</p>
<p>"Just because a student does not pick Duke, that does not equate Duke to a lesser school. There are students I know picking BYU over Harvard and Williams over Princeton. This does not demote the reputation of schools in any way."</p>
<p>Yes there are students who pick BYU over Harvard. But does EVERY student pick BYU over Harvard? Or is it just a very very very small minority (like 1 or 2 students). You see, the beauty of this survey is that it measures the aggregate decisions of thousands of kids. The weird decisions of 1 or 2 or even 10 or 20 kids make no difference whatsoever. You know basic, elementary statistics right? At the very tail end of the distributon, there are always outliers that have strange numerical values. However, the mean of the sample is very stable, and it would take a whole lot more than a few random deviations to change the mean. </p>
<p>Therefore, the fact that Duke is ranked #12 is because the MAJORITY of students (like 75% or more) choose the schools that ranked above it. No it does not equate Duke as a lesser school, but it does equate Duke as a school that does not attract as high a quality of a student body than say HYSMP or the 11 schools ranked above Duke. That might translate into the perceived prestige of the schools in the minds of the top students who were admitted, or it might translate into perceieved QUALITY of the schools in the minds of students. </p>
<p>"Just because I prefer Dartmouth over Columbia, that does not mean I'll end up there for the next four years. What if the aid is not right at Dartmouth? What if I my parents will not allow me to attend?"</p>
<p>Yes that is true. Just because YOU prefer Dartmouth over Columbia it does not mean that you will attend Dartmouth. But do you honestly believe that by the law of large numbers, that most students won't be able to attend the school they prefer. You either have to be extremely naive or have the most shallow understanding of statistics if you believe that. Most students will be able to choose the school they prefer. Rememeber, this isn't a sample of 10 kids. It's a samples of thousands of kids. When you take such a large sample, a few outliers or extraordinary circumstances will not change the result. </p>
<p>Anyway, you seem biased towards your school because it seems to be so highly ranked on US News but not on this revealed preference ranking. Sorry to break it to you, but US News is based on the arbitrary numbers of a US News editor. They chose which numbers to wieght, and they dont even give an explanation as to why. This revealed preference ranking gives pages upon pages about how they conducted the ranking and why they chose the numbers that they did. They even allow the reader to view the advanced statistical models that they used, which give the mathematical reasoning behind what their methods are. As per US News, I don't know what they did to choose the numbers. Did they get a drunken moneky to point to a computer screen and then decided, "Yup, let's make peer assessment worth 25 percent." Or maybe they were rolling some dice and decided, "Yeah, the numbers on the three dice came up to be 15, so let's make yield worth 15 percent." You see what I mean? You don't know what the heck they did to decide how to weight certain statistics. I don't know about you, but that makes for a very arbitrary ranking.</p>
<p>Also, I say this as a person whose school is ranked number 3 on US News and number 2 on the revealed preference ranking. Since my school is basically ranked the same on both rankings, you can understand that I am not unfairly biased towards either school. Or am I really fighting that hard to get Yale boosted from #3 to #2? Surely that wouldn't make any sense.</p>
<p>Wow...where do I begin?</p>
<p>"Yes there are students who pick BYU over Harvard. But does EVERY student pick BYU over Harvard? Or is it just a very very very small minority (like 1 or 2 students)."</p>
<p>Why are you generalizing so much? I understand a student like this is not in the majority, but you have not right to immediately pull some random figure out of thin air to prove your argument.</p>
<p>"You see, the beauty of this survey..."</p>
<p>Don't make me laugh</p>
<p>"... is that it measures the aggregate decisions of thousands of kids. The weird decisions of 1 or 2 or even 10 or 20 kids make no difference whatsoever."</p>
<p>Wierd decisions? Who is to say that most students are prestige mongering snakes like you irrevocably portray them to be? Many students turn down schools of a higher prestige, so to speak, to one of lesser prestige because of mitigating circumstances. </p>
<p>"You know basic, elementary statistics right? At the very tail end of the distributon, there are always outliers that have strange numerical values. However, the mean of the sample is very stable, and it would take a whole lot more than a few random deviations to change the mean. "</p>
<p>Wow, no need to be rude to me. In sum, a preference ranking is schools students choose to attend over others. Where does prestige factor into your argument? I feel slightly awkward having to re-explain that this ranking does not measure the perceived reputation of schools, but rather which schools are akin to the preferences. </p>
<p>"Therefore, the fact that Duke is ranked #12 is because the MAJORITY of students (like 75% or more) choose the schools that ranked above it. No it does not equate Duke as a lesser school, but it does equate Duke as a school that does not attract as high a quality of a student body than say HYSMP or the 11 schools ranked above Duke. "</p>
<p>What are you talking about? How can you possibly measure the quality of students at ANY of these schools? Who are you to make that distinction? Who are you to say that the majority of incoming Harvard students are more academically fit over a Yale one just because some arbitrary ranking system does? Duke does not attract the NUMBER of students that the others do, but that says absolutely nothing of thier substance. Moreover, Duke has thousands of more applications than a number of the 18 schools ranked above it. For instance, Dartmouth gets like 10,000-12,000 a year while Duke normally pulls in around 16,000-18,000 high caliber students. These students are not applying for the hell of it. Moreover, a place like CIT aggregately asks for a very specialized type of student (i.e. one wanting to pursue engineering or the sciences more often than not). Many studets flock to places like these and turn down better offers.</p>
<p>"Yes that is true. Just because YOU prefer Dartmouth over Columbia it does not mean that you will attend Dartmouth. But do you honestly believe that by the law of large numbers, that most students won't be able to attend the school they prefer. You either have to be extremely naive or have the most shallow understanding of statistics if you believe that."</p>
<p>YOU ARE BEING RUDE! Needless to say, you are wrong. You are again making claims that you cannot justify. How do you know that every incoming MIT student wanted to attend there above any other school? This type of generalizing astonishes even me. This debate is not a statistical one, because we have NO WAY OF KNOWING what every student truly wanted when they matriculated into a school.</p>
<p>"Anyway, you seem biased towards your school because it seems to be so highly ranked on US News but not on this revealed preference ranking. Sorry to break it to you, but US News is based on the arbitrary numbers of a US News editor."</p>
<p>Don't presume to know my intentions in this argument please. Usnews is certainly flawed, but no more flawed than a ranking of this sort. THEY ARE NOT EVEN THE SAME TYPE OF RANKING! I could care less what typically naive prefroshes decide on. Dartmouth has a higher yield than Duke, does that mean that it is a better undergraduate institution? Those do not equate to each other. Usnews factors in the opinions of thousands of deans, etc from these schools, and I care more about there opinion than some entering freshman who knows far less. For example, I would rather trust Alexandre/Slipper than you when deciding on what college is "better." Your beloeved preference ranking is a popularity one and I have Alexandre to vouch for me on that.</p>
<p>"Did they get a drunken moneky to point to a computer screen and then decided, "Yup, let's make peer assessment worth 25 percent." Or maybe they were rolling some dice and decided, "Yeah, the numbers on the three dice came up to be 15, so let's make yield worth 15 percent." "</p>
<p>Goodness. Ok, if you do not hold too much faith into these rankings wholistically, then break them up. Look at the peer assesment scores of each and weigh them as you see fit. To me, the peer assesment is basically how informed people view these schools. I see that as very valid. As you will see, Duke/Penn are equal to one another and are higher than many of the schools above it in this preference ranking. </p>
<p>"You don't know what the heck they did to decide how to weight certain statistics. "</p>
<p>I advise you to check out the USNEWS book at your nearest Barnes and Nobles immediately. :)</p>
<p>Edit: About your latest post about you being at Yale not meaning you are biased.</p>
<p>I have two things to say:</p>
<ol>
<li>It was YOU who accused ME of bias</li>
<li>For all intents and purposes, I could care less where you go to school</li>
</ol>
<p>im sorry DMC but I have to agree with Gutrade. These rankings are done over such a large number of students that those circumstances you noted before are somewhat accounted for. This ranking is very good at what it does and that is, it measures how great a school is in the eyes of the students who are going to attend and who are applying there. The students are one of the most important part of a school and their perception , i believe, is what makes a school what it is.</p>
<p>why is caltech above mit? mit wins most of the cross-admits...</p>
<p>I disagree with you on all points, stan. This is not a prestige/academic excellence ranking! Notre Dame is not BETTER than Duke in prestige. I trust you can figure that out, my man. Plus, I trust the opinion of a schooled adult like Alexandre rather than your preconceived notions as a typical student.</p>
<p>Moreover, how is USNEWS/PRINCETON REVIEW/etc flawed and this not?</p>
<p>notre dame is not better in prestige than duke in your eyes but you are not one of the kids they interviewed. this was a survery that looked at many kids who all believed that notre dame was so prestigious. who are you to say as a fact that it is not? you call my notions preconceived but in that statement dont you see you are doing the same thing</p>
<p>Of course I am doing the same thing. I am a student no different from you. However, just because Notre Dame is ranked higher, that does not mean that students felt it was better than Duke/Uchic/Umich,etc! Most probably didnt even apply to Duke!</p>
<p>lol of course those kids applied duke had liek 18,000 applications this year and it is becoming one of the hottest schools out there.</p>
<p>If these rankings were based solely on cross-admits, it would look a bit different. As shrek pointed out, MIT wins the majority of cross-admits with Caltech, and Princeton wins over MIT and Stanford, caltech usually isnt a major competitor. Notre Dame is a very self-selective school where students applying usually use it as a first choice while Duke shares cross-applicants with major top schools like the ivies, stanford etc. This ranking, though rather interesting, seems to be based upon opinions that dont really matter. But DMC, you must also recognize that the difference between yale and say duke may not be very much at all. Seeing how there are no ties, the 2nd place school may not be all that "more preferred" than the 8th place school, perhaps only slightly out beating it.</p>
<p>How can u say that? How can you say that everyone at Notre Dame applied to Duke and picked Notre Dame over it? Do you honestly believe that? Do you honestly hold the word of incoming freshman higher than people in the know? This is not prestige ranking since it values the opinion of people less suitabe to make that distinction. We are all advent to this process.</p>
<p>actually sarasote, stanford-princeton cross admit battle is beign won by stanford.
also DMC like sarasote said, the notre dame pool is self selecting. the kids who chose to apply there, love it and respect it highly</p>
<p>"the kids who chose to apply [to Notre Dame], love it and respect it highly"</p>
<p>What's your point? Did the people who applied to University of Chicago love it less? Wow, you must tell me how you have the gift of mindreading. In fact, considering as how difficult Uchic's app is, I am inclined to say the opposite.</p>
<p>If you go by the %lost, yes stanford has a less percent lost to princeton, however, not all are the same size. stanford lost an estimated 820 students to other schools while princeton lost 420, nearly half the amount. When looking at the actual number stanford lost and the actual number princeton lost, princeton lost less students to stanford than vice versa.</p>
<p>The key word is preference. This ranking is not indicative of superior academic prowess in any way, shape or form--this is the impression I believe some individuals are alluding to. To say that a school does not attract as high number of students similar in quality as a higher ranked "preference" school is presumptuous. There are too many mitigating factors as to why a student may prefer one school over another.</p>