New "Revealed Preference" Ranking Released

<p>sarasote numbers mean nothing since the schools are differnt in size. what is more important is percents and stanford wins a bigger percetage than princeton in terms of cross admits between the two schools</p>

<p>just curious, before I came to these boards, I never knew that Stanford was soooooooo prestigious. I never knew that HYPSM standed for such an elite group, neither did I get the letters and what they stood for.</p>

<p>Exactly. We are all naive to this process. I picked Duke over Dartmouth. So, according to this survey, it would be one point (or whatever the quantifying element is) that says Dartmouth is better. Can one not see how insipid that is? I am in flummox by all of this.</p>

<p>Let's see "revealed preference"...hmm..would you guys equate that with "dream schools"?</p>

<p>If so:
<a href="http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/package.jsp?name=news/dreamcolleges/dreamcolleges%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/package.jsp?name=news/dreamcolleges/dreamcolleges&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>There are so many lists that will tell us the contrary so nothing should be taken so literally.</p>

<p>I much prefer this ranking to US News, though I hate all rankings. I think that people are getting frustrated here over a perfectly valid survey, and we wouldn't have such a commotion if we established in clear terms what this ranking is measuring. It is my understanding that this ranking is measuring the level to which high school students hold a school in esteem. It may be upsetting to find that your school is much farther down on a preference list than you would ever expect, but just because certain students pass over one school for another doesn't mean that the school they choose is necesarily better. What it means is that that school is able to better attract high caliber students. As Devil may Cry said, this can be because of regional bias, financial issues, etc. But WHATEVER. The bottom line is that those schools are missing out on their top applicants. And for that argument (mitigating circumstances) we have to remember that it works <em>both ways</em>. Some students in the South may not wish to leave the general area b/c of weather, family connections, etc. </p>

<p>It really doesn't matter, or mean very much.</p>

<p>The percent has nothing to do in relative with princeton Stanford. yes Stanford has a smaller percent of its lost students going to Princeton, but going to harvard and yale instead. Princeton has a one higher percent of its TOTAL lost students going to Stanford. This has nothing to do with Princeton-stanford Cross admits. When looking at only the total number of Princeton-Stanford cross admits (just Princeton & Stanford, not the total number of students lost) Princeton wins a higher number/percentage of those choosing between princeton and stanford only. </p>

<p>Im not sure if thats very clear...but here goes.</p>

<p>Stanford is very prestigious (collegekid). Over seas, Harvard is the most followed by Yale and Berkeley, then Stanford, then probably Princeton and MIT.</p>

<p>I KNOW, but before coming to this board, i didn't know that Duke and Stanford were to the level of Harvard...my bad...</p>

<p>In short, you (Collegekid) just proved with those statements why these rankings are not indicative of domestic prestige or quality.</p>

<p>collegekid1988: Dude there is nothing wrong with that. I had never heard of most of these LACs until I came to this board.</p>

<p>You guys should really read the introductory pages to the ranking to see how the process really works. They actually take "mitigating factors" into account and adjust for that. They adjust for regional bias, financial aid, etc. </p>

<p>Also, I have to concur with stanmaster that Princeton does indeed lose the majority of cross-admits to Stanford, Harvard, Yale, and MIT. In fact, the revealed preference ranking made a big deal about how Princeton specifically tries to admit students who fall just under the threshold for admission into HYSM. In this way, there are less cross-admit tournaments and it seems like Princeton's yield is high. However, Princeton does not directly compete with HYSM for applicants and thus the ranking put Princeton at #6 behind Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Caltech, and MIT.</p>

<p>Now to respond to DMC’s posts.</p>

<p>DMC: “However, just because Notre Dame is ranked higher, that does not mean that students felt it was better than Duke/Uchic/Umich,etc! Most probably didnt even apply to Duke!”</p>

<p>On the contrary, the revealed preference ranking makes sure that the schools ranked higher than the schools below directly competed with those schools for top applicants. The reason that Princeton is ranked lower than HYSMC is because Princeton did not directly compete with those schools. If you read the pdf file, it shows a chart correlating SAT scores with chances of admission. In the Princeton chart, the probability of gaining admission actually DECREASED as SAT scores rose. Only at the tail end of the chart, where the SAT scores were really really high, Princeton risked admitting the student knowing that the student may very well choose to go to HYSMC. This is because at that point, the benefits of snagging such a top student outweighs the risk of a lower yield rate. </p>

<p>Anyway, suffice it to say that the revealed preference ranking would NOT have ranked Notre Dame above Duke if Notre Dame did not win most of the common cross-admit battles with Duke. For example, say that a student was admitted to both Notre Dame and to Duke. That student is most likely going to choose Notre Dame. I don’t see why that is so surprising, seeing as how the very smartest of all students do not take US News so seriously. Other than Duke’s #5 ranking on US News, what makes you think it’s more prestigious than Notre Dame? A recent gallup poll of the most prestigious colleges came out with Harvard on top, Yale and Stanford tied for second, and Notre Dame, MIT, Princeton, and Berkeley rounding out the other colleges listed. Duke wasn’t even mentioned. But hey, don’t take my word for it, here’s the article itself: </p>

<p><a href="http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=9109%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=9109&lt;/a>
“When asked to name the best college or university in the nation, one out of four Americans name Harvard as their first or second choice, more than twice as many as name any other college. Stanford and Yale are next most frequently mentioned, followed by MIT, the University of California at Berkeley, Notre Dame, and Princeton. These top-of-mind rankings from the general public contrast somewhat with those published by U.S. News and World Report over the weekend.”</p>

<p>Collegekid, Stanford is more prestigious overseas than domestically. Its sports somewhat shadow its outstanding academics (to an extent). Although Stanford is definitely equivalent to the top ivies in terms of academics, the average person, domestically, usually doesnt put stanford at the level of HYPM (Stanford is much more prestigious in California than outside of California, however, it is still regarded as an outstanding school, just not "Harvard" quite yet). This isnt meant to be offensive, thats just from what I have seen and and from the opinions of those I have met. The first question that pops up if you are heading off to Stanford in AZ is "were you recruited?" </p>

<p>majay - most LACs have no national recognition, in the average public anyways.</p>

<p><em>Sigh</em></p>

<p>"For example, say that a student was admitted to both Notre Dame and to Duke. That student is most likely going to choose Notre Dame. I don’t see why that is so surprising, seeing as how the very smartest of all students do not take US News so seriously. Other than Duke’s #5 ranking on US News, what makes you think it’s more prestigious than Notre Dame?"</p>

<p>Well, there is WSJ (flawed but a ranking nonetheless), the Princeton Review's list of dream schools Majayiduke pointed out, Duke's Pton review score in relation to Notre Dame, Duke's grade placement being second only to HYPS, and the disappointing number of Notre Dame alums at top grad schools for starters.</p>

<p>"A recent gallup poll of the most prestigious colleges came out with Harvard on top, Yale and Stanford tied for second, and Notre Dame, MIT, Princeton, and Berkeley rounding out the other colleges listed. Duke wasn’t even mentioned. But hey, don’t take my word for it, here’s the article itself: </p>

<p><a href="http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=9109"&gt;http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=9109&lt;/a&gt;"&lt;/p>

<p>Wow. The common man will not be selecting me for top grad programs nor will he be hiring me after I finish law school. The opinion of people who are not likely to shape my future is quite irrelevant. The PrincetonReview also asked students/parents about which schools are dream schools, and Duke not only made the top 10, but it edged out Notre Dame. Let ME provide you with a link:</p>

<p><a href="http://channels.netscape.com/ns/new...s/dreamcolleges%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://channels.netscape.com/ns/new...s/dreamcolleges&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Shall I continue? Perhaps we could switch to Notre dame against Cornell. It also ranked above cornell and I would relish the opportunity to tell you the improbabaility of that ever occuring.</p>

<p>I am not sure why some of you are debating this ranking so much. It is a ranking of how popular universities are in the eyes of high school students. It does not measure academic quality or reputation. Academic quality is 100% derived from the quality of the faculty and the various departments and reputation can only be derived from academic peers (top professors, researchers and university administrators) and corporate recruiters. </p>

<p>I personally find it silly to get so emotional...or to place so much importance on such an meaningless study. Let us start by examining a few concepts:</p>

<p>1) Is there such a difference between #7 and #20 in that particular ranking? Is there such a difference between 2400 and 2200? I don't think we need to get bent out of shape for such a small difference.</p>

<p>2) Does it matter what the top 200,000 students think of your university? Why? Most of those students will change their opinions of what constitutes a top university by the time they are 25.</p>

<p>3) What difference does it make whether 10,000 top students or 200,000 top students think the world of a university? Does it matter? Not really since no university can accommodate more than 7,000 freshmen!</p>

<p>In the grand scheme of things, only four people's opinions really matter when it comes to universities:</p>

<h1>1, and most important of all, the student in question. Let us face it, education is a personal mission. One should not care so much about what others think.</h1>

<h1>2, top professors and educators around the nation. Nobody knows more about universities than those guys. They are the experts...they know.</h1>

<h1>3, corporate recruiters. Where do Procter and Gamble, GE, Microsoft, JP Morgan, McKinsey, Ford, IBM, Cisco, Pfizer etc... recruit from the most?</h1>

<h1>4, graduate school adcoms. If you cal Yale Law admissions or Johns Hopkins medical school admissions or Wharton MBA admissions or MIT graduate Engineering admissions and ask the director of admissions where do most of their successful candidates apply from, what will they say? Which undergraduate institutions continuously send them the best students?</h1>

<p>Sorry to say it folks, high school students, undergraduate students and even graduate students do not make the list of people that are either qualified...or important enough to matter.</p>

<p>Amen.</p>

<p>(10 characters)</p>

<p>Everyone knows Princeton practiced "selective admission" in the past, but that is no longer the case. This is the reason Princeton's yield has fell from 74% to 68%. Princeton directly competes with Harvard and Yale (attracting almost the same number of cross-admits with Yale). Caltech barely has cross-admits and doesn't belong in this category. MIT oses to Princeton. Stanford has caught up and equalized with Princeton (Princeton has a higher percent lost, however a lower actual number). It really doesnt matter to me that Stanford is ahead of Princeton in the "preference" rankings. Stanford is a very selective school. The issue is, when in current admissions, Princeton no longer practices "selective admissions" as most people now know, you continually bring it up. Its complete turn around in the admissions process has temporarily brought down its yield (now its directly against harvard, yale, and stanford, MIT isnt even a very big competitor). For this reason, it has kept ED and probably will have to for a few more years. Stanford has only recently become a big competitor in the college game (mainly because of its weather advantage over HYP). </p>

<p>And with Alexandre's always wise posts, he makes a good point that none of us can determine selectivity or which school is "better" when really, these schools are all equivalent. What do you know about Princeton's "selective admissions" besides what you have read many years ago? HYPSM, who cares which is more selective, are equal in the minds of those who matter. As I have learned from being a spectator on this thread, people enjoy tearing apart each others schools without fully understanding them. We are talking about the top 10 schools in the nation. There are thousands of them. Preference? Who Cares. You will be making the decision, you alone.</p>

<p>"The percent has nothing to do in relative with princeton Stanford. yes Stanford has a smaller percent of its lost students going to Princeton, but going to harvard and yale instead. Princeton has a one higher percent of its TOTAL lost students going to Stanford. This has nothing to do with Princeton-stanford Cross admits. When looking at only the total number of Princeton-Stanford cross admits (just Princeton & Stanford, not the total number of students lost) Princeton wins a higher number/percentage of those choosing between princeton and stanford only."</p>

<p>Since Princeton does not directly compete with Stanford for students, I would have to say that Stanford overwhelming defeats Princeton in terms of attracting the most qualified student body. Stanford has just recently beat my school, Yale, in the overlap of applicants with Harvard. Anyway, let me show you guys an article which should help you understand the whole admissions landscape:</p>

<p><a href="http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2004/october6/decline-106.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2004/october6/decline-106.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>In the published statistic, Princeton only accounted for 8 percent of cross-admits who chose Princeton instead of Stanford. The other numbers are Harvard (28 percent), Yale (20%), and MIT (13%).</p>

<p>MIT certainly does compete with (and win) against Princeton. Where are you getting your statistics sarasote?</p>

<p>I dont like to get involved with these things, but seeing that it involves my school I understand what he is saying.</p>

<p>Gutrade, the statistics that you and stanmaster like to present, use percentages rather than raw numbers. Yes, Princeton had more than 8% of those who rejected choose Stanford, I believe they had 11%. However, although 11% of those who rejected Princeton chose Stanford and 8% of those who rejected Stanford chose Princeton, Stanford is a much larger school (800 rejected at Stanford, while only 400 rejected at Princeton). Thus, a larger number (65 at Stanford) rejected Stanford for Princeton would be a much smaller percent relative to Stanford than 40 who rejected Princeton for Stanford. Thus, when looking at only the total number of those who were choosing between Stanford and Princeton exclusively (105, 65 chose Princeton, 40 choose Stanford). This is the same with MIT.</p>

<p>my aunt and uncle live in Scottsdale, it's very nice down there. You live near Phili Michelson right??</p>

<p>Yes I live by Phil Mickelson, among others =P (Annika Sorenstam lives here too). You ever come down here to golf? Ranked #1 in the world =P. We have our fair share of celebrity residents...including Jenna Jameson if thats your thing. :D</p>

<p>But all relative, I love Stanford. I chose not to apply, however, my best friend will be attending there. I could care less if Stanford is a more selective school than Princeton. These selectivity rankings and preference rankings mean very little to me. It seems people on CC always want to degrade other schools and promote their own school as much as possible. Oh well, I guess its just competition.</p>

<p>but just asking you, gutrade, what do these cross-admit statistics even show us? that which schools these very few people prefer? why does it matter what schools they prefer? it is a personal preference. many of the students i know who chose stanford chose it because of its excellent weather (compared to the icy cold freezing snowy new england area). does that really mean anything? i dont think so, maybe to some...</p>

<p>Jenna eh?! hehe Well, I never saw her when I visited last. In 2003, I spent a week at the Phoenician (I am Lebanese afterall! hehe). Nice little place. And their flagship restaurant, Mary Elaine's, certainly made the grade!</p>