<p>
[quote]
her program has paid off. She has been accepted to the University of Virginia, and she won a prize for her performance on the test: a gift certificate worth more than $100 for Amazon.com.</p>
<p>Does IB or AP offer the same for its top students? That would be a big no.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's seriously the goofiest and most worthless point ever.</p>
<p>IB to me, is about teaching us how to think, not what to think. does it always succeed? nope. but i highly prefer its purpose to that of AP. IB isnt ABOUT getting college credit, i think that the article is misleading. IB is about teaching one how to think critically and internationally and make connections, not to mention manage time. Plus, you dont even have to take the class to take an AP test. Most of my friends and I are taking some AP tests, even though we go to an IB school. i thought the article was biased and incomplete.</p>
<p>in terms of IB math, there is also a further maths course, offered at SL level, but the hardest test IB offers, supposedly.</p>
<p>countingdown, at your son's school, which I suspect is also my daughter's school, the kids cover almost all of the IB SL topics in precalculus except for the small amount of calculus that is included on the IB SL math exams. They then take a regular AP calculus course (either BC or AB) and take both the AP AB or BC calculus test and the IB SL Math (or Math Studies) exam at the end of that year, which means pretty much winging it on the non-calculus topics on the IB exam. They mostly get decent IB scores anyway. Heaven knows how. I certainly would not recommend this method of getting kids through math to a typical IB population, but we're not talking about a typical IB population.</p>
<p>Also, kids who take the IB SL Level 5 foreign language courses can get college credit, just not from the IB test. They need to take the AP test for that purpose. My daughter says that the AP Spanish test is more demanding than the IB SL test, so maybe there is some basis for the colleges' policies about SL tests. </p>
<p>My daughter expects to have about 30 college credits when she enters college in the fall (although her prospective college won't actually let her count anywhere near that number toward graduation), and she has taken fewer AP tests than most of the kids in the IB program do. Your son shouldn't have any trouble getting that advanced standing that he's looking for, provided that he chooses a college that allows kids to get advanced standing on the basis of AP and IB. Our state university is most hospitable in this regard.</p>
<p>Marian, ACK! Math is DS2's toughest class -- it's where all the LDs show up in their full glory. I hope we can find out what topics aren't covered. With DS1, there is a core group of kids who have been together since 4th grade and we parents all give each other the heads-up on issues, teachers, opportunities, etc. I need to start a similar group for DS2 -- we have all scattered to the four winds since 4th grade.</p>
<p>Interesting to hear about AP Spanish being harder! I tried to find curriculum books online over the summer to see if there were any holes between Spanish 2 and pre-IB Spanish 3, but was unsuccessful. IB curriculum seems to be an international secret.</p>
<p>DS2 loves it there (yes, I think it's the same school, too)-- he's working his tail off, but would rather be there than any of the other options or our local HS. For him what sealed the deal was being able to do all that history/poli sci AND HL Bio. Everywhere else, it was either/or. He has a couple of small, somewhat selective LACs in mind, but he is also quite interested in the flagship. He's been hearing all about DS1's search, so has formed some opinions, but he's still a freshman and his list will look absolutely nothing like his brother's.</p>
<p>here's a link to a HL math syllabus: <a href="http://www.cis.edu.hk/sec/math/ib/IBH.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.cis.edu.hk/sec/math/ib/IBH.htm</a></p>
<p>there is also another course that is not offered very many places (at least this is the impression I am under) that goes further than HL math, but is an SL test, for some reason.</p>
<p>Here's an IBO explanation of the various math courses: <a href="http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:qy8qpHqe1HgJ:www.ibo.org/examiners/assistant_posts/maths/documents/MathsGuide.doc+SL+further+mathematics+syllabus&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2%5B/url%5D">http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:qy8qpHqe1HgJ:www.ibo.org/examiners/assistant_posts/maths/documents/MathsGuide.doc+SL+further+mathematics+syllabus&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2</a></p>
<p>It is difficult to take AP tests and IB tests because they are in the same time frame senior year. It would be very beneficial to IB kids to plan early and takte as many as possible before senior year. I was limited to taking 2 AP tests by the schedule (time conflicts, and having to go to another school to take them), because literally I had IB tests every day for 2+ weeks. Didn't get credit for the AP English because I didn't know how to write their essays. They had like 3 prompts that we had to write an essay for each in 2 hours, and the IB test was 1 passage/essay in the same amount of time. I guess in AP you are supposed to pick what to write about, and in IB you tear apart every single part of the passage.</p>
<p>I'm not planning on taking any AP exams. I honestly think it just doesn't occur to people much to do that.</p>
<p>I'm pretty sure I know juniors who took three exams last year. IB Chem 1 is the one class (other than SL1 Math Methods if you're accelerated two years ahead in Math) we can take in 10th grade at my school. So some people take Chem SL in 11th. In addition anyone who did Methods 1 in 10th grade takes Methods SL, and then almost everyone last year it seemed was in either Anthro or Business and in that case Anthro is only SL at my school and a lot of people take SL Business even if they do HL Business (which is what I did). I definitely knew someone who took Chem, Methods, and Anthro. All schools work their diploma programs somewhat differently though. You cannot take any HL exams as a junior but I hadn't heard about just taking two SLs. At any rate though you could take anything as an extra certificate so technically you aren't really limited, it just can't be an exam you're counting in your diploma. </p>
<p>Math Studies is statistics and doesn't go into calc. SL Methods is HL Methods minus a few topics...HL Methods does calc plus advanced alg/trig concepts. The most extensive non calc topic is prob 3D Vectors IME (SL mainly does 2D), but complex number stuff pops up a lot and binomial expansion/factoring work. Our option is Series and Differential Equations but schools wouldn't have to pick that and Diff. Eq. don't show up on paper 1 and 2 much AFAIK, you could probably skip that topic without too much fallout. I think it would pretty hard to do the Methods exam with only calculus...the vectors would kill you. I think with only vectors and extensive calculus you could probably pass though.</p>
<p>Marian, how many college credits are kids with courses similar to your daughters getting at colleges? My son entered with over 40 credits from AP exams, and that is not unusual from around here. Are kids getting the similar type of credit for IB courses and exams? Or is what Soccerguy saying more typical (he only got one course for college credit, sounds unbelievable to me)? I don't know many kids who graduated with a full IB diploma and how their credits were given, if they did well on their exams. </p>
<p>In many schools, they make you take their own language exam to place you despite AP results. I remember at Orientation, a family not happy about this as their daughter had a 5 in French. APs are often counted in odd ways too, with some schools only taking 5 for credit and sometimes even not that. Even within a college, different departments and majors will take APs differently. But a 5 is pretty sure to get you out of some course and get you credit. 4's and 3's not as often, particularly for specific course equivalency, I have noticed.</p>
<p>Credit is such a hard thing to speak to, especially at the more selective schools. I mean Yale, for example, doesn't even give any incoming credit unless you plan to graduate in less than the normal amount of semesters or something. Some schools give credit for this on this exam, but not that. It depends on even what APs you take. I know kids who have gotten sophomore standing from diploma and kids with the same scores not get a lot. Depended on the school. In terms of the same schools, I haven't noticed that the kids I know at AP schools have gotten tons more credit than IB kids. However they probably weren't pursuing the hardest APs possible and a lot of them. </p>
<p>One thing that's worth mentioning is that most people consider SL not the equivalent of AP. That depends. The exams are easier, but as for the actual class, it depends on your school/school system. Since you need to meet state requirements to graduate, usually doing SL English won't work since some states require 4 years of English. In my county, English and History are automatically HL. So is Biology but I don't know why that is. The only one year SLs are elective type classes - business, anthro. SL science is two years, so is a SL language. Also, most schools can't make an IB II class all SL or all HL. Therefore you'll see a lot of SL/HL splits. My french class is an SL/HL split so the kids taking the SL exam are doing the same work as the kids taking the HL exam. Most of the science classes are split. So of the core subjects, we're really taking classes to prepare for all HL exams, even though we'll take three SL exams to meet IB requirements. Now I can see from the credit standpoint why they can't measure credit for the exam, but from a difficulty of curriculum within a county standpoint it matters. I've seen some people here argue SL is unfair because it creates an "honors" level at IB schools that doesn't exist at AP schools (county has no honors, only AP/IB)...that's not really true the way we work it out here.</p>
<p>I don't think IB SL classes are easier than AP, not at all. IB kids consistently take and score very respectably on AP tests with little or no prep. Sometimes prep is helpful due to differences in the cirriculum.</p>
<p>At the very top schools, like Yale, where they don't really give credit for stuff, you won't notice it. But at the tier slightly lower, where I am, it is very clear. My friends from HS at other equal schools (read: UVA, Richmond... half my IB class went to UVA or WM, the others are scattered from Ivy to Military Academies to McGill to New College, FL) reported the same thing. This isn't a very big deal now, but it was widely discussed during the first part of our first semester at college. The most IB credits I am aware of was roughly a semester worth, with most people getting 3-6, while it is not too hard to find AP kids with 30+. I firmly believe it is harder to score higher on the IB tests than the AP tests.</p>
<p>At my school a 6 or 7 in HL History of the Americas doesn't even get you credit for American History, but rather Global History, even though you must be well versed in American History (and Latin American History!) to do well on this exam.</p>
<p>Yeah good points. Maybe UVa has changed some of their credits now, we were looking at the list and it seemed like you could get a fair amount, although I didn't really compare it much to what you could get for AP. LOL So I guess I don't know. Nothing for SL really. </p>
<p>I think I just haven't really known a lot of people taking the equivalent of Diploma in APs (I don't have much a sample to judge by truthfully, being from an IB school)...I guess if you did you'd get a lot of credit. Also, some schools don't pay for the exams like is the norm here...in some parts of the country I think it's somewhat common for kids to take AP classes but not the exam (can't do that in IB). But having the school system pay the exam fees makes people not limited in that respect. Still I just think that even with AP programs some people aren't really getting that much credit, although I guess what matters is potential to get it.</p>
<p>I believe that kids from our IB program typically end up with at least 20 college credits, often more (mostly from AP tests that they took after completing IB courses). And because we have a large IB program and a certain amount of clout, nobody is ever denied the opportunity to take an AP test because it is scheduled in the same time slot as an IB test; the school gets permission to allow students with conflicts to take AP exams on the make-up days. My daughter will have about 30 credits when she graduates, and she has not taken as many tests as some of her classmates have taken.</p>
<p>However, it's important to realize that many of the more selective private colleges limit the ways in which students can use AP/IB credits to satisfy graduation requirements.</p>
<p>At the college where my daughter will be going, you can only use 20 AP/IB credits toward the 120 needed for graduation. Also, you cannot use AP/IB credits to satisfy distribution or foreign language requirements, although you can use them to place out of one of the two required freshman writing courses, and you can count them toward the prerequisites for most majors. Some other colleges are even stricter.</p>
<p>There are limits at many colleges as to how AP/IB credits can be used. But I find it interesting that the IB kids have to take AP tests to get the credit. I always thought that a certain score on IB would be equivalent to AP as far as credit went, and that there was no need for IB kids to take AP tests for that reason. I assume that is why there are conflicts with the tests; it is insane that these kids should have to take both--I believe you or another poster was calling it insanity as well. I had always believed that an IB program completed in entirity was the top curriculum and accordingly that the exams would be treated on par with the AP exams. The weight that an IB curriculum has would be established by the track record of that highschool in how well their past kids tended to perform on the IB exams. I know colleges look at that for AP programs as well. A school that offers every AP available with many kids in AP is not going to have a lot of weight if its kids are not scoring high on the exams, and past performance is the key in making that decision since the senior results do not come out until after decisions have long been made. I don't think clout has a thing to do with taking the AP at an alternative time. In the past 10 years, I have seen that done many, many time. Maybe has to do with the "trouble" the person at the school has to go through to arrange it and have it proctored which some lazies at some schools don't want to bother to do. We have unfortunately run into those types too often, and when we dig into a question of why something cannot be done, or done alternatively we hit that lode.</p>
<p>It's still good to have the credits, even if your college does not take them. My son entered a different program at another school that did take credits that his primary college did not take and they were useful. Kids also transfer and those credits can then help. For my other son at a state school, it allowed him to go right to the heart of his major since all of his general requirements were covered. Having those college credits can become very useful, I have seen with a number of kids. Sometimes you also get the situation where you need to take an exam to skip entry level courses despite AP credit, but those with the credit get the credit for the course skipped whereas those who take the exam but don't have the official exam results, get to go on to an upper level course if they pass but without the credit. My sons had all of their lower level general non required courses covered with APs, but not necessarily specific course requirements. One had to take a World Cultures/History course despite a 5 in World History AP. So it is all over the place, even contradictory within a college itself, but still worthwhile having.</p>
<p>That G'town admissions counselor really has no idea what the IB diploma entails. I'm guessing he's being deluged with phone calls and emails from IB HS guidance couselors and coodinators inviting him to learn about IB, in addition to correcting his assumptions.</p>
<p>Hmmm...this explains why none of the IB kids from my son's HS (IB public HS school in VA, class of 2006) are at G'town. Where are they? Class of 2010 at William and Mary, UVA, Princeton, Yale, Brown, Northwestern, Duke, NYU, GW, Cornell, Colgate, Emory...I could go on, but you get the drift. Seems this G'town admissions counselor is doing his school a disservice.</p>
<p>From what I am gleaning from this thread, it appears that the AP curriculum is generally considered stronger than IB, even the full IB since it appears that even someone who does the full IB and takes the exams is not likely to get college credit from the results as would someone who takes AP.</p>
<p>No, Cap'n. I think what you ought to glean from this thread is that IB has only recently begun to approach critical mass, and that AP existed as an effective monopoly for decades. IB has taken some big bites out of AP, but AP is still the larger, broader, more-ensconced program.</p>
<p>More than half a century ago, College Board did a wonderful job of lobbying colleges and instutitionalizing acceptance of its tests as the gold standard of value -- obviously, the SAT, LSAT, GRE, as well as the APs. The IB people have not done that job as well, yet, have not had enough time to do it as well, and have an intrinsically harder task because once you have two (and maybe more) gold standards then everyone has to start worrying about how you treat the next fad, etc. The spread of IB has not been uniform, either, either regionally or across types of schools.</p>
<p>There's also some politics to it, on several levels. AP defending its marketing advantage. The fact that at most schools it's a money issue (more credit given for pre-college work = less revenue per student), and they may not be anxious to extend the now-traditional AP discount. The fact that there are many more families with a stake in AP than with a stake in IB. Also (as I understand it) the most aggressive early adopters of IB in the US tended to be Catholic schools that were not traditionally seen as academically rigorous within their communities, and they didn't have the political oomph their competitors did.</p>
<p>Every college rewards the IB diploma differently. IB kids need to check this ilnk before they start their college searches:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ibo.org/country/US/index.cfm%5B/url%5D">http://www.ibo.org/country/US/index.cfm</a></p>
<p>Scroll down to "Universities that Recognize the IB Diploma." Search for the school, and you'll see a brief narrative of how it handles IB credit, and frequently a link to the IB portion of their website.</p>
<p>A lot of the IB kids in my son's HS like to stay within our state university system because most of them can start w/ soph status (which makes it easier to double major, and to graduate on time). Some schools are quite generous with their IB credits, James Madison (VA), for example:</p>
<p>As a rule, state schools are much more apt to give credit for IB --AND-- AP. My son's private university took enough of his credits that he could skip some core courses and electives which, again, will make it easier for him to double major. An unexpected benefit is that he is allowed to register for classes two weeks earlier than the kids without IB credit. He realized the signifcance of this last month when he got every class (prof, course, session) that he wanted (spring semester) while quite a few of his friends were shut out of their first choices and scrambling to pull a schedule together. This continues through college so he'll be able to graduate on time. I'm not sure if kids with AP credit have the same perk.</p>
<p>Still, he'd have gotten more bang for his IB buck if he'd gone to one of our state schools. For students who want to maximize the strength of their IB credits, it pays to do the research!</p>
<p>My d is a soph in the same IB HS, and we can't say enough about the program. Our IB program is almost a school within a school, as the kids are together in smaller groups for four years. They tend to be the higher achievers (all the magna cum laude kids last year were IBers), so that becomes the peer group. Also, the best teachers line up to get the IB and IBMYP classes.</p>
<p>We transferred our neighborhood AP HS so that our kids could go to this magnet IB public HS, and it was the right decision for our family.</p>
<p>The IB is not about getting college credits and should not be measured that way. If that's all you want out of a high school education take AP courses. </p>
<p>For students studying outside their home country it is a curriculum that is known and understood throughout most of the world and will lead to college admission. For Americans it is a way to learn more about the world and how to approach it than you could possibly learn in a regular, honors, or AP classroom.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
That G'town admissions counselor really has no idea what the IB diploma entails.
[/QUOTE]
That wasn't an admission counselor, that was the Dean of Admission.</p>
<p>I stand corrected, Dean J. :) Thanks.
So it's the Dean of Admissions, then, who needs to be schooled. :) :)</p>