<p>Your criticism is expected, though not necessarily valid. The same could be said for engineering majors, vocal performance majors, etc. that decide not to go to law school from Cornell/WashU/etc. The same could be said for LAC students that decide to go to business, medical, or graduate school - and believe me, many more choose this path than choose law. As I've noted earlier in the thread, this list says nothing more than the total percentage of a student body attending YLS. If you are trying to come to a different conclusion and having difficulties, don't blame me.</p>
<p>"The same could be said for engineering majors, vocal performance majors, etc. that decide not to go to law school from Cornell/WashU/etc."</p>
<p>-I feel the same about these places.</p>
<p>"The same could be said for LAC students that decide to go to business, medical, or graduate school"</p>
<p>-And these. </p>
<p>"this list says nothing more than the total percentage of a student body attending YLS."</p>
<p>-And I want that to be known. </p>
<p>"If you are trying to come to a different conclusion and having difficulties, don't blame me."</p>
<p>-I just want it to be known that the ONLY conclusion one caould - and should - draw from this is that it is the total number of students in the law school. This tells nothing about how many people applied to the school, that is, it says nothing about how many people in a student body actually WANTED to attend this law school - and even more importantly - it says nothing about the relative name power of each school at getting its students into the law school. </p>
<p>Look at the list.... cut HYPS and like the next 9 schools are pretty much all small liberal artsy colleges. There is, to me, little shock in seeing elite small liberal arts schools having a few of their population in YLS. Although the numbers probably don't exist, I want to see how many people applied from each school in addition to their avg GPAs and LSATs; this will give us a better understanding of how successful each school is at getting its students accepted to YLS.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, we do not have individual undergraduate data of #applied/#admitted. I would like to undergo such a project as the data is usually available in pre-law offices if others are interested.</p>
<p>
[quote]
says nothing about how many people in a student body actually WANTED to attend this law school
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, but I personally don't care how many people "wanted" to go to YLS. I am more interested in how many people wanted to go there AND were accepted. As 45 Percenter noted, though, this data is not conclusive simply because (shockingly) people are admitted to YLS and decline, as was the case with UPenn. </p>
<p>I see this list and do find it informative. It tells us what percentage of a class enrolled at YLS, which presupposes that at least that many were admitted to YLS. You hit the nail on the head. My conclusion has nothing to do with which school is better at placement. Indeed, I don't even think I've made a conclusion. It's just information that shows how much of a student body happens to end up enrolling at YLS. Do what you will with it.</p>
<p>"No, but I personally don't care how many people "wanted" to go to YLS. I am more interested in how many people wanted to go there AND were accepted."</p>
<ul>
<li>Exactly what I meant... You're arguing with one of my points that doesn't even exist... All I'm saying is that it is far less likely that say a voice major at Northwestern or a Architecture major at Cornell is going to try to get into YLS in the first place, much less be admitted. Thus, comparing a school with tons of different fields and over 5,000 or 10,000 students to a LAC with fewer than 3,000 doesn't make much sense to me. Moreover, such lists could lead people to draw, what I believe to be, the WRONG conclusions, which is why I'm giving my opinion. </li>
</ul>
<p>"I see this list and do find it informative."</p>
<ul>
<li>Well, Wesleyan is number 11... of course you would - and even should. :)</li>
</ul>
<p>"Do what you will with it."</p>
<p>-That's exactly what I'm doing. You've presented the data and I'm giving my thoughts on them. </p>
<p>"It's just information that shows how much of a student body happens to end up enrolling at YLS."</p>
<p>-Again, as long as we're all clear on this, then fine.</p>
<p>Though this type of post leads to interesting discussions, it doesn't really explain the more important correlation of LSAT/GPA scores and Yale Law (or any other T-14) School acceptance.</p>
<p>There was a posting a while back which showed average LSAT scores from colleges. Even the "Holy Grail" of schools (HYPS) -- showed the average LSAT score of their own undergrads to be in the mid 160 range. I believe It was somewhere between 166-168 .
So even with the HYP undergrad degree and an "average" LSAT of 166 or so, the liklihood of getting into HYS Law may not be too great, unless there are other outside factors. I will admit, that the HYP UG with a 166, may get an admittance to a Top 14 Law school while many others will not-- but the SUNY Bing with a 174 + LSAT will fare pretty well too. In fact maybe better than the Harvard UG with a 168 LSAT.
Don't forget there are plenty of HYP grads at Fordham Law and GW too!<br>
Again- word to the wise- be prepared for the LSAT. It is probably the most important factor in Law School Admissions.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well, Wesleyan is number 11... of course you would - and even should
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, I tend to look over Wesleyan on this list. Its proximity to Yale (being 30 mins away in the same tiny state) leads me to believe data is skewed, though I'm sure Wes deserves to be ranked among other top feeders given its student body composition.</p>
<p>
[quote]
All I'm saying is that it is far less likely that say a voice major at Northwestern or a Architecture major at Cornell is going to try to get into YLS in the first place, much less be admitted. Thus, comparing a school with tons of different fields and over 5,000 or 10,000 students to a LAC with fewer than 3,000 doesn't make much sense to me.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As I've noted before, your criticism can be extended to any school. Indeed, it seems as if few, if any, applied to YLS from Reed, Smith, Colby, Macalester, etc. all top LACs. Obviously students have different interests. Claiming that Northwestern is getting a raw deal while others are not seems silly since</p>
<p>1) No conclusion has even been stated
2) Every school has the same problems, making this data nothing more than what it is: data</p>
<p>I would find it interesting to have a reliable list including applied/accepted students at top law schools from undergrads, but really this data is only so meaningful. It seems plenty of Harvard undergrads are rejected in favor of Bowling State, UT, and foreign university grads, just going to show that undergrad isn't the name of the game in law school admissions.</p>
<p>"Even though Yale has been continuously rated #1 by US News, Harvard still has a name that, among the general public, carries greater weight."</p>
<p>Maybe slightly, but i doubt there is much difference in name between Harvard and Yale to the general public. and amongst law students and law professors in academia, Yale Law is generally considered the more prestigious and top law school. You make it sound like Harvard is considered so much better than Yale in name to the public. I just dont think that is the case. If you were argueing Harvard vs. say Penn, I would agree with you. Yet Harvard and Yale in general are the two biggest and most well regarded names in academia to the general public (although some might argue in regards to reputation to the general public that Stanford, Princeton, and Berkeley might belong with those two).</p>
<p>^ True, but my statement was in response to the assertion that most applicants accepted to both YLS and HLS would choose Y over H. I don't know that that's necessarily true (although I wouldn't be surprised if it is)--H has an exceptionally powerful name and draw, even at this level.</p>
<p>"Claiming that Northwestern is getting a raw deal while others are not seems silly since"</p>
<p>-I'm claiming no such thing.... In fact, I already said:</p>
<p>"The same could be said for engineering majors, vocal performance majors, etc. that decide not to go to law school from Cornell/WashU/etc."</p>
<p>-I feel the same about these places.</p>
<p>"The same could be said for LAC students that decide to go to business, medical, or graduate school"</p>
<p>-And these."</p>
<p>-So I really don't know what you're talking about I'm just saying that comprehensive universities like Cornell, Northwestern, and Penn can't be compared (as a whole) to places like Amherst, Williams, and Swarthmore in this manner.</p>
<p>"No conclusion has even been stated"</p>
<p>-Maybe not in this thread, but it most certainly has come up before. Further, If you're not drawing any conclusions from it, then why present the data? The whole "it's just good to know" argument doesn't really make much sense. </p>
<p>"Every school has the same problems, making this data nothing more than what it is: data"</p>
<p>-What do you mean every school has the same problems? Are you saying that a school like Amherst is in some way as academically diverse as Cornell? How could these schools be seen as "having the same problems"?</p>
<p>brand_182,</p>
<p>I think kk has a point. At Northwestern, most prelaws are in CAS. CAS students are more likely to be prelaws than students in the schools of engineering, communication...etc. In my year, nobody in my chemE and envE (I double-majored) class applied to law school. I doubt many in the music school are prelaws either since the music school at NU is pretty much a conservatory. </p>
<p>kk isn't saying NU is the only one that got the raw deal. Schools like Cornell and Penn are in the same boat. Are there prelaws at Cornell's school of hotel? Sure. But I am pretty sure the percentage is higher at their CAS. I think it'd be difficult to find many prelaws at Wharton.</p>
<p>Research Us like Chicago, however, doesn't have this problem since it's undergrad division is pretty much a CAS. Duke/Columbia are pretty much just CAS + Engineering; so while they have the same "problem" with their engineering students, it isn't as bad as Cornell/Penn.</p>
<p>Not saying the list is useless, just trying to point out how the numbers can be more skewed for some schools than others.</p>
<p>"but the SUNY Bing with a 174 + LSAT will fare pretty well too. In fact maybe better than the Harvard UG with a 168 LSAT."</p>
<p>Actually, the SUNY Bing with a 169 will fare better than the Harvard UG with a 168 - they don't care about your UG as much as 1 LSAT point, if at all. In fact, chances are that the same student who got that 168 at Harvard would do better if he had gone to Bing and gotten the 168, since it would be easier to get a higher GPA there.</p>
<p>But that isn't really the point of the thread. Basically, it is trying to compare how good the student bodies of the schools are, not how much being at that school helps (which is known to be around zero).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Maybe slightly, but i doubt there is much difference in name between Harvard and Yale to the general public. and amongst law students and law professors in academia, Yale Law is generally considered the more prestigious and top law school. You make it sound like Harvard is considered so much better than Yale in name to the public. I just dont think that is the case. If you were argueing Harvard vs. say Penn, I would agree with you. Yet Harvard and Yale in general are the two biggest and most well regarded names in academia to the general public (although some might argue in regards to reputation to the general public that Stanford, Princeton, and Berkeley might belong with those two).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, you're right. I just want to elaborate on a few things.</p>
<p>Both are the premier law schools; however, there are/were concerns about Yale Law's teaching style which is oriented more towards legal theory (most of the top schools are but YLS in particular is known for this). Given this, some employers complained that YLS grads were not familiar enough with how to address the nuts and bolts of a case but rather is public policy considerations. This is why YLS is extremely attractive to those interested in legal academia, as you said.</p>
<p>However, HLS carries more weight in BigLaw as it is not as concerned with legal theory; however, that is not to suggest that you cannot get a BigLaw job as a YLS graduate -- that would be an absurd statement.</p>
<p>
[quote]
-What do you mean every school has the same problems? Are you saying that a school like Amherst is in some way as academically diverse as Cornell? How could these schools be seen as "having the same problems"?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Northwestern and other national universities have separate programs at the undergraduate level which should be taken into consideration. You make it seem as if there is not nearly as much diversity, in this sense, at LACs. I would disagree. At Wesleyan, for instance, of the 720 or so graduating, 135 applied to law school - just under 19% of the class. This is pretty much what I expected since there are likely just as many going on to graduate, medical, business, or straight to the workforce. I'm saying that all schools have this sort of diversity that you are noting. The fact that national universities have different colleges from which students are less likely to apply to law schools doesn't negate the fact that LACs also have the vast majority not taking the law path. Now I would agree that probably at national universities like NU, somewhere between 12-15% of the class applies to law school, as we all know LACs will have more students going on to an advanced degree.</p>
<p>If you or others here are really that interested, you could give me the numbers for CAS graduates in one year at NU/Cornell/etc. only and I can recalculate the list to see what would happen. I don't care. As I said, it's data. Data does not have to imply a conclusion. </p>
<p>I understand your point, I just don't think things are as drastic as you make them. Swarthmore, for instance, has an excellent showing, although I'm sure the majority of its grads are more apt to going on to graduate school, just as the majority of grads from NU are more apt to go straight to the workforce, b school, med, etc.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <ol> <li> Harvard - 89 - 79 - 84 - 1686 - 4.98%<<</li> </ol>
<p>This is really interesting to look at, IMO. In any given year, for instance, one could estimate that approximately 5% of the students at Harvard will graduate and go onto Yale Law School - arguably the best law school in the nation. That's really a massive percentage of students going onto the best law school....<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>It's not quite that massive. Unless I don't understand what you've calculated here, I think there is an error. It should be about 1/3rd that size, because the 79 Harvard grads currently enrolled (or the 84 average) represent the <em>total</em> Harvard enrollment in all three law school classes at Yale (plus students in law programs other than JD), which were in turn drawn from three successive Harvard undergrad classes.</p>
<p>Thus the calculation should be: 1686 x 3 = 5058</p>
<p>84/5058 x 100% = 1.66% </p>
<p>That is still a lot but not nearly so impressive as 5%</p>
<p>Oh wow thanks for that clarification. I had thought these numbers were for 2005-06 enrollment only. If they are for all three years, that's really not as big of a deal at all. So, for instance, this data means that out of all 600 or so YLS students, only 9 in the class are from Amherst? That's not nearly as big of a deal as I was thinking.</p>
<p>brand_182,</p>
<p>Actually, 19% is a lot for prelaw alone. According to Northwestern UCS's website, 23.4% of their grads went for further education which includes law, medicine, and graduate studies (class of 2005).</p>
<p>Really? That number seems very low. I find it strange that a school like Northwestern, full of the nation's top students, would have 76.6% of its student body not interested in pursuing an advanced degree, which usually equals more money. It's particularly puzzling when you consider that, even at Harvard, the average starting salary of those from Harvard College doesn't exceed 60k and one can only advance so much salary-wise before hitting a ceiling. Makes me wonder how they're paying off that debt.</p>
<p>brand_182,</p>
<p>Many of them do further education later, just not right out of college.</p>
<p>Good point. I understand what you are saying then. Assuming ~24% of NU grads pursue an advanced degree straight out of college and assuming that grad/med/law/business are equally pursued (if that's the case), only about 6% of NU grads apply straight to law school compared to ~19% of Wes grads. I wonder why, though, since a liberal arts major at NU or any top uni is likely to have a starting salary comparable to that of a liberal arts major at a top LAC.</p>
<p>Northwestern's number is not unusual for resarch Us like that. It's just low compared to many LACs. Cornell had 232 students applying for medical schools last year. You are talking about a school with 3200-3300 undergrads per class. That's about 7%.</p>