<p>
[quote]
I wonder why, though, since a liberal arts major at NU or any top uni is likely to have a starting salary comparable to that of a liberal arts major at a top LAC.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, almost half of NU students are not in CAS (liberal arts) and within the CAS, between 1/5 and 1/4 of them are econ majors (NU's econ is huge) who are pretty "business-oriented".</p>
<p>No, I understand that it's a typical percentage at universities. I just wonder why such a smaller percentage goes straight to grad/prof school since liberal arts grads from top unis probably aren't making much, if any, more than liberal arts majors from top LACs. I would think the drive for money would be existent in all students whose undergrad degree, of itself, is not worth much and certainly not worth enough to comfortably pay back the loans.</p>
<p>EDIT: Got your second response. That makes sense.</p>
<p>Average LSAT (2005-6 Administrations)</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Harvard - 166</p></li>
<li><p>Yale - 165</p></li>
<li><p>Stanford - 164</p></li>
<li><p>MIT - 164</p></li>
<li><p>Duke - 164</p></li>
<li><p>Princeton - 163</p></li>
<li><p>Columbia - 163</p></li>
<li><p>Dartmouth - 163</p></li>
<li><p>Pomona - 163</p></li>
<li><p>Williams - 163</p></li>
<li><p>Amherst - 163</p></li>
<li><p>Brown - 162</p></li>
<li><p>UPenn - 162</p></li>
<li><p>Chicago - 161</p></li>
<li><p>Cornell - 161</p></li>
<li><p>Claremont McKenna College - 161</p></li>
<li><p>Rice - 161</p></li>
<li><p>Northwestern - 160</p></li>
<li><p>Georgetown - 160</p></li>
<li><p>Wesleyan - 160</p></li>
<li><p>Brandeis - 159</p></li>
<li><p>Grinnell - 159</p></li>
<li><p>Notre Dame - 159</p></li>
<li><p>Virginia - 159</p></li>
<li><p>William & Mary - 159</p></li>
<li><p>Vanderbilt - 158</p></li>
<li><p>Michigan - 158</p></li>
<li><p>McGill - 158</p></li>
<li><p>Macalester - 158</p></li>
<li><p>Emory - 158</p></li>
<li><p>BYU 158</p></li>
<li><p>NYU - 158/155</p></li>
<li><p>Kenyon College - 158</p></li>
<li><p>UC-Berkeley 158</p></li>
<li><p>Tufts - 158</p></li>
<li><p>Connecticut College - 158</p></li>
<li><p>Oberlin - 158</p></li>
<li><p>Davidson - 158 (in 2000)</p></li>
<li><p>UCLA - 157</p></li>
<li><p>UC-San Diego - 157</p></li>
<li><p>Wake Forest - 157</p></li>
<li><p>USC - 156</p></li>
<li><p>UMass-Amherst - 156</p></li>
<li><p>Smith 156</p></li>
<li><p>Texas - 156</p></li>
<li><p>Trinity (TX) - 156</p></li>
<li><p>Wisconsin-Madison - 156</p></li>
<li><p>Boston University 155</p></li>
<li><p>Lehigh - 155</p></li>
<li><p>University of Dallas - 155</p></li>
<li><p>Washington - 155</p></li>
<li><p>Boston College - 154</p></li>
<li><p>Florida - 154</p></li>
<li><p>Georgia - 154</p></li>
<li><p>Miami (OH) - 154</p></li>
<li><p>Missouri - 154</p></li>
<li><p>Southern Methodist - 154</p></li>
<li><p>Texas A&M - 154</p></li>
<li><p>Utah - 154</p></li>
<li><p>Western Washington Univ. - 154</p></li>
<li><p>Oklahoma - 153</p></li>
<li><p>Boston University - 153</p></li>
<li><p>Nebraska-Lincoln - 153</p></li>
<li><p>Minnesota-Twin Cities - 153</p></li>
<li><p>Butler Univ. (IN) - 153</p></li>
<li><p>UMD - 153/147</p></li>
<li><p>Montana State Univ. - 153</p></li>
<li><p>Utah State - 153</p></li>
<li><p>American - 153</p></li>
<li><p>Arizona - 152</p></li>
<li><p>Kentucky - 152</p></li>
<li><p>Hiram (OH) - 152</p></li>
<li><p>Pittsburgh - 152</p></li>
<li><p>St. Louis University 152</p></li>
<li><p>Kansas State University - 152</p></li>
<li><p>Penn State - 152</p></li>
<li><p>Syracuse 152/150</p></li>
<li><p>UConn - 151</p></li>
<li><p>Wisconsin-Milwaukee - 151
16, Loyola Marymount - 151</p></li>
<li><p>UMinn-Duluth - 151</p></li>
<li><p>University of North Florida - 151</p></li>
<li><p>Florida State 150</p></li>
<li><p>Northeastern - 150</p></li>
<li><p>Ole Miss - 150</p></li>
<li><p>Wyoming - 150</p></li>
<li><p>Washington State - 150</p></li>
<li><p>DePaul - 149</p></li>
<li><p>Georgia State - 148</p></li>
<li><p>Stockton - 148</p></li>
<li><p>Temple 148/146</p></li>
<li><p>University of New Orleans - 148</p></li>
<li><p>Middle Tennessee State - 147</p></li>
<li><p>City University of New York - 145</p></li>
<li><p>Howard - 145</p></li>
<li><p>West Georgia 145</p></li>
<li><p>John Jay - 142</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Self-selection problems here as well, of course. Maybe only the rejects from MIT are forced to go to law school, while that is the chosen path of the very brightest at Harvard.</p>
<p>lol you must be on LSD.</p>
<p>I prefer the term "acid".</p>
<p>
[quote]
Actually, the SUNY Bing with a 169 will fare better than the Harvard UG with a 168 - they don't care about your UG as much as 1 LSAT point, if at all. In fact, chances are that the same student who got that 168 at Harvard would do better if he had gone to Bing and gotten the 168, since it would be easier to get a higher GPA there.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, I don't know about that. Harvard is a highly grade inflated school, and while I don't know much about SUNY-Bing, I suspect that that school is not grade inflated. Couple that with the fact that Harvard students tend to be highly motivated and intellectual; it is easier to be motivated when you are surrounded by motivated people. Hence, it is highly possible (indeed, perhaps probable) that you would end up with worse grades at SUNY-Bing than you would at Harvard.</p>
<p>Minor point, but I think your Columbia class size number is still off. Looks like you copied the Dartmouth size for Columbia. College Board says 4184 in the College, 1409 in Fu, total 5593. Annual class size would be 1398. Percent would be 1.39.</p>
<p>The top of the list looks very much like a simple ranking of academic qualifications for enrollment at the colleges. Eliminating the tech colleges, the Yale Law School list seems to parallel the median SAT scores of entering students amazingly well. High SAT's predict high LSAT's, and admission to YLS.</p>
<p>California Institute Of Technology 1,510<br>
Massachusetts Institute Of Technology 1,500<br>
Harvard University 1,490<br>
Princeton University 1,480<br>
Yale University 1,480<br>
Harvey Mudd College 1,470<br>
Amherst College 1,455
Pomona College 1,455<br>
Stanford University 1,455
Dartmouth College 1,450
Columbia 1,440
Swarthmore College 1,440<br>
University Of Chicago 1,440<br>
Washington U 1,440<br>
Brown 1,435
Rice University 1,435<br>
Williams College 1,435<br>
Duke University 1,430<br>
Penn 1,430</p>
<p>These SAT scores aren't correct though, </p>
<p>Duke is ~1450, Amherst ~1440, Swarthmore ~1430...though all within 20-30 points</p>
<p>But yeah, high SATs = high LSATs = good law school admissions</p>
<p>Rancid Brown trolling, their average = 1390.</p>
<p>Highly unlikely. Wes' average SAT is ~1420 and I am quite sure Brown's is higher, though not by a large amount.</p>
<p>SAT figures are estimated medians from collegeresults.org. They got them from IPEDS. They may disagree with those reported elsewhere, but this is data filed by the colleges with the feds, so they are likely to be correct. If not, take it up with the colleges. </p>
<p>Collegeresults.org does not directly indicate what year the data concern. However, they are from a table that concerns 2005 data otherwise. So I suspect these are 2005.</p>
<p>That year, Wesleyan was 1400.</p>
<p>My response was to cherokeejew. Wes' average SAT is around 1420 - it very well could be 1400, though I know it is not lower. As Brown is a top university and I have seen their averages many times, I am quite sure it's not a 1390.</p>
<p>SAT scores vary from year to year. The relative ranking tends to be more stable.</p>
<p>Brand, if you have the HLS data, why not present it? Most people will be far more interested in the overall trend than in minor changes from 04-05 to 05-06.</p>
<p>Sure:</p>
<p>Ugrad Class Size HLS Percentage</p>
<p>Harvard 1686 241 14.29418743
Yale 1315 86 6.539923954
Stanford 1646 79 4.799513973
Princeton 1200 54 4.5
Amherst 433 19 4.387990762
Columbia 1374 46 3.347889374
Brown 1466 48 3.274215553
Dartmouth 1086 35 3.222836096
Williams 534 17 3.183520599
Swarthmore 370 10 2.702702703
Rice 713 18 2.52454418
Duke 1683 41 2.436125966
Upenn 2373 57 2.402022756
Pomona 379 9 2.374670185
Georgetown 1606 32 1.99252802
Brandeis 765 11 1.437908497
Cornell 3188 45 1.411543287
MIT 1002 13 1.29740519
Berkeley 4157 48 1.154678855
Middlebury 563 6 1.065719361
Chicago 1259 13 1.032565528
Claremont Mckenna 294 3 1.020408163
Notre Dame 2039 20 0.980872977
Wesleyan 720 7 0.972222222
Northwestern 2062 20 0.969932105
Caltech 214 2 0.934579439
Barnard 556 5 0.899280576
Washington & Lee 450 4 0.888888889
Emory 1665 14 0.840840841
Vanderbilt 1590 13 0.817610063
UCLA 4811 39 0.810642278
Carleton 504 4 0.793650794
Wellesley 586 4 0.682593857
WashU 1470 10 0.680272109
Haverford 314 2 0.636942675
Bowdoin 474 3 0.632911392
Tufts 1281 8 0.6245121
Smith 674 4 0.59347181
Case Western 1015 6 0.591133005
Grinnell 405 2 0.49382716
Carnegie Mellon 1428 7 0.490196078
Virginia 3905 19 0.486555698
USC 2763 13 0.470503076
Michigan 5060 23 0.454545455
Davidson 461 2 0.433839479
NYU 4740 20 0.421940928
Oberlin 718 3 0.417827298
UT 7417 27 0.364028583
UNC 3807 13 0.341476228
Vassar 668 2 0.299401198
Bryn Mawr 358 1 0.279329609
Tulane 1115 3 0.269058296
Yeshiva 750 2 0.266666667
Reed 376 1 0.265957447
JHU 1207 3 0.248550124
William & Mary 1349 3 0.222386953
Boston College 2284 5 0.218914186
Hamilton 501 1 0.199600798
Washington 5475 9 0.164383562
Colgate 744 1 0.134408602
UCSD 4589 6 0.13074744
UIUC 7172 7 0.097601785
Wake Forest 1122 1 0.08912656
Lehigh 1217 1 0.082169269
Rochester 1219 1 0.082034454
RPI 1270 1 0.078740157
Penn State 8039 6 0.074636149
Wisconsin 5643 4 0.070884281
Georgia Tech 2837 2 0.070497004
UCI 4839 2 0.041330853
Colby 475 0 0
Macalester 501 0 0</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well, I don't know about that. Harvard is a highly grade inflated school, and while I don't know much about SUNY-Bing, I suspect that that school is not grade inflated. Couple that with the fact that Harvard students tend to be highly motivated and intellectual; it is easier to be motivated when you are surrounded by motivated people. Hence, it is highly possible (indeed, perhaps probable) that you would end up with worse grades at SUNY-Bing than you would at Harvard.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have to disagree with you on this one specifically sakky, mostly because I have personal experience with SUNY Bing. For the intelligent student (which is what we can assume since we're all here on CC) who attends classes, takes down notes, and makes an effort to study from the textbook, it is NOT HARD to make As at Bing. I think, but I'd have to check, that Bing is not on a +/- system, which is even BETTER for those aspiring to make top grades. One of my best friends at Bing has stated that all he had to do was attend lectures and actually pay attention - just do the bare minimum - to make Bs at the very least. Obviously, he assumed moderate intelligence and punctualness - qualities that are far from regular with the average college student.</p>
<p>Obviously, sociological factors in such a different environment are important considerations, but they're not so bad at Bing such that the motivated student will flippity-flop. Something like ASU could be a different story, but SUNY Binghamton? Not from what I've seen. Without a doubt, Harvard students will have to work harder and I think the de facto grade deflation at Bing is more of a result of a lower-quality student body than any actual administrative procedures. I still fail to see how Harvard students would have an easier time getting As/Bs than any somewhat motivated/intelligent Bing student. And I'm not talking extremely motivated, just somewhat.</p>
<p>Minor point, but I think your Columbia class size number is still off. Looks like you copied the Dartmouth size for Columbia. College Board says 4184 in the College, 1409 in Fu, total 5593. Annual class size would be 1398. Percent would be 1.39."</p>
<p>FWIW, you're missing an undergraduate college of Columbia, its School of General Studies.</p>
<p>"the School of General Studies of Columbia University is the finest liberal arts college in the United States created for adults who wish to pursue an Ivy League education full or part-time."</p>
<p>-Why is that funny to me.....?</p>
<p>You may well be right, but some sources which seem fairly recent show Brown at 1390.
<a href="http://encarta.msn.com/colleges_701830322/Brown_University.html%5B/url%5D">http://encarta.msn.com/colleges_701830322/Brown_University.html</a>
<a href="http://www.princetonreview.com/college/testprep/testprep.asp?TPRPAGE=295&TYPE=SAT-ACT-HOME%5B/url%5D">http://www.princetonreview.com/college/testprep/testprep.asp?TPRPAGE=295&TYPE=SAT-ACT-HOME</a></p>
<p>And those same sources show Wesleyan at 1390 and 1400, respectively, so even if Brown has improved, it's clearly not inconceivable that Wesleyan has as good or better averages.</p>
<p>As satisfying as that data would be for me, one could consider College Board in this case as well, which purports to gather its data from the most previously released Common Data Set:</p>
<p>Brown
CR: 670-760
Math: 680-770</p>
<p>Wesleyan
CR: 640-750
Math: 650-730</p>
<p>So yeah, the differences aren't particularly substantial and were Wesleyan a popular university, it would enjoy higher SAT averages, just as any comparison of a top LAC and university will show. However, from this data, I would gather that Wes' average is around 1400 while Brown's is around 1450. Keep in mind, however, that this data is from the latest (updated) CDS report. More recent data shows, as I've indicated, that Wes' average scores are 710/720/710 respectively. I don't know Brown's most current scores as I don't really keep up with it.</p>