evitarjr1- brilliant post, imo (#76).
andi started this thread to help people avoid the supremely stressful spring “acceptance” season she and andison experienced. This thread should stay on track for its intended purpose. If a poster wants to start a thread about what is “owed” to high-performing students, s/he should do that and leave this thread to its original intent.
My two cents.
I completely agree with InterestedDad’s post. It isn’t about tacking on a safety school. I have also seen some students’ lists of all super duper reaches (for anyone) like Ivies and schools like them and then the state U, where in many cases, the student has no desire to attend. Students need a range of schools. I like to see 40% reaches, 40% matches and 20% safeties for most students. There are all sorts of situations such as speciailized admissions (BFA in musical ltheater, for example). But for most situations, the balance I just suggested is what is needed. Most students end up at their match schools. This is where a lot of energy should be spent choosing the schools. Students need to like their safeties and not just tack on a state U because it exists. State U’s are great if that is the safety you like the most. For top students, safeties can still be selective schools but schools that are safe relative to them. In my earlier post, I mentioned safety schools for a student who is a top student. For other kids, those would not be safeties, however. To have a list that is all reaches and then one safety is not a good idea. In fact, there is a greater chance that the kid lands at his safety. Like interestedDad, I also scratch my head when I see lists that are all reaches and then a very easy safety school because there is SOOOOOOOO much in between. The student need not “settle” for a school miles apart from his wish list of reaches. There are selective schools in between the unpredictable reaches like Ivies and state U. Again, nothing wrong with state U but that school should be chosen if that is the safety you like. Lots of kids tack on safeties that they did not spend time choosing but just “because”.
I also think a lot of time should be spent exploring all the schools on one’s list, NOT just the reaches. The focus should not be on the reaches. They are called “reaches” for a reason. Reaches are either schools that are a reach for someone’s qualifications OR in the case of colleges with extremely low admit rates, are reaches for anyone due to the odds of admission. Besides finding schools you would be happy to attend that are matches and safeties, one needs to put just as much energy into those applications and into expressing interest with those schools. The safeties should not be treated as afterthoughts and just submit application and that’s it.
So the lesson is not that a top student needs a safety but that any student, including the best and brightest, needs a balanced list of reaches, matches and safeties. I know a top student like Andison who lives in the same general area as he does and he went to a private school though, and his list was top heavy. I would call almost every school on his list a reach (for anyone) and then he also had Tufts and Brandeis on the list. Tufts, by the way, is quite hard to get into with an admit rate around 23% so that is a reach/match for a top student. Brandeis is more like a match. He only got accepted to one school, Tufts, and he went. Granted, Tufts is an excellent and very selective school. Heck, I went there! LOL So, he made out OK in that he did get into a reach/match. But he had no safeties and he had no options in spring (granted that is better than no acceptances and you can only attend one school after all). Still, I think his results woud have been different had he had a more balanced list. He may have had a couple matches to choose from, conceivably. Hard to say. These outcomes are not rare. They are common particularly for those who do not have a balanced list. That is truly the lesson needed, not just to make sure you have safeties. Also pick safeties you like. I have a D who is a top student and her safeties were selective schools that were safe for her but not easy to get into overall.
I agree with interesteddad, my point was simply that he wouldn’t have gotten rejected from EVERY school had there been a safety. I think there should be some reaches, some good chance schools, and some sure thing safeties. Most importantly, try to love several schools (hard as it may be). I only got in to my sure thing safeties, and I was very disappointed. I ended up at my last choice school.
Layla, you bring up a good point…love every school on your list. If you don’t, change the list. It is not OK to only love your reaches. It is OK to have favorites, but even then, I strongly recommend to not fall in love with one school. It is a set up for disappointment.
My D had reaches, matches, and safeties. But she also had three other “piles” that didn’t necessarily match the reach/match/safety categories and these were “most favorites”, “favorites I really like a lot”, and “least favorites but really like and would be happy to attend.” She liked every single school on her list. Visited each one…put equal energy into the application whether it was her reach or her safety…put as much interest into each school and expressed it specifically as if it was where she was dying to go…she may very well end up there and so each school was treated the same on her list. It is very important to like every school on one’s list. Putting safeties on a list that you are not interested in is not wise. May as well not even add them then. Nobody wants to spend four years at a school where they have no interest in attending. My D really liked her safety schools. They were not her state U either. She liked her other schools more but definitely liked them all. In the end, when she had all her acceptances in hand, she actually preferred two of her match schools over one of her reaches and knocked that reach off her list when returning for open houses for accepted student events. That shows how much she really liked and wanted to attend her matches. In fact, one of her matches was in her “most favorite” pile and above two of her reaches in that respect.
Andi, I’m obviously in the minority here but I want to congratulate you on turning lemons into lemonade; for your grace under fire; for raising a young man with a lot of character and resilience, and for an absolutely awesome outcome.
Hindsight is 20/20… but if the choice was a painful spring/summer and a lot of work to make a gap year pay off and then end up at MIT; vs. some of these schools people are suggesting as good safeties for Andison… hey-- I think he’s in a better place. It doesn’t need to be about the prestige… but a kid who is turned on by MIT isn’t likely to want to hang out on a preppy, semi-rural campus for four years just because it’s an easy place to get accepted to and has a good math department (but in some of the cases of schools suggested… no grad school, limited research opportunities;limited performance opportunities for non-music majors, etc.) I’m all for loving your safety… but people, be reasonable!
Andi-- my son’s MIT interviewer told him that they specifically look for kids who are not afraid of failure. Your son will find a large, supportive group of kids who frequently bite off more than they can chew and then make the best of it… just like your son did… and I think he’ll have an exhilerating four years!!! Congrats and thanks for being so open about your experiences.
Bingo. Yes, interesteddad and I did talk about this and it played a significant part in how his original list came to be. A complete lack of suggestions for that range of schools in between that we came to learn about the second time around.
Thanks again Blossom. I guess along with ‘Love thy safety’ should be ‘Know thy kid.’
Andi, as I have mentioned to you before, I would never wish what happened to your son on anyone. It was a huge setback and greatly disappointing, particularly for a student of his calibur. In the end, I think he is better off for all this. I still wouldn’t wish it on him but I think he gained a lot in the GAP year activities and then his admissions cycle the second time went way better…better list, better results…he likely even was a better candidate due to all he had been through and could write about, etc. A lot of times, people come out stronger for having experienced a setback like this. I think your son did. Obviously lots of schools wanted him which is no surprise. In the end, he is going to a fantastic school and things have worked out. Very bumpy getting to this place…what a ride…but it is a very happy ending and in many ways, he has benefitted from the experience. It must have been so difficult at the time.
I wish you had more guidance on the first go around to have avoided this situation but I do think you guys were very wise the second time around. I guess the second time was a charm. I wish your son well at MIT and he really has earned his chance to attend!
By the way, any schools I listed as matches or safeties were not meant with Andison in mind. I gave them as examples of matches and safeties for a student of his calibur of qualifications but they surely were not geared to his interests or needs. In order to suggest schools for this student, I would have had to have specific information about him and his college criteria as well. I do believe, in the case of Andison in particular, however, that there are matches and safeties that exist that would be suitable and even liked by Andison, but just were not looked into on the first go around. Luckily, the second list included such schools that he liked and had better odds as well. Lucky for him that he got into one of his reaches but I do think his matches and safeties were good ones for him on the second year list.
Susan, Would you really consider these to be safeties? Wouldn’t Oberlin have fit right into a list like that? I’ve read in these forums that Muhlenberg (getting to be a hot ticket now) and Skidmore have been known to deny kids they think are using them as safeties. And Lehigh, Tulane and U Rochester are still first tier schools! I mean, you’re right, I have no doubt that a top kid like Andison WOULD have gotten into schools like these, but to me, a true safety would still mean a rolling admission state school or a private school with a much higher acceptance rate.
I personally know top kids who were turned down by places like GW, American(shocker), and Emory (known to do this), but who got into much more selective schools.
I agree that the lists that include nothing but Ivys and state schools can seem surprising. There are plenty of parents (even well off ones) who feel that they are only willing to pay for Ivys or their equals, especially if there is a worthwhile honors program available at the state school. Unfortunately, merit opportunities are often overlooked -overworked and uninformed GCs are the main reason.
“This thread is about covering your bases.”
Thank you, Andi. I was new to CC this year, but I had pieced together your story from comments made by you and other people. Still, I appreciate your pulling it all together in a single thread.
People keep saying that Andison should have had a safety, but it was more than that, given your new list. He needed a wider range of “match schools” - that is, prestigious schools that were a step below HYPS. My conclusion after seeing the aftermath of the college application process both on CC and among those I knew is that anyone who qualifies for the applicant pools at HYPS and the like should consider those schools “reaches,” no matter what a GC or fellow CC people say. The match schools are next on the list. Then one or two safeties. There is a reason that students are applying to 10-15 schools these days; even the top students are not sure things at the top schools. Your lesson is a valuable one for all parents and students on this site. Dream big - but be realistic. Apply to each school as though it is a first choice.
Someone my d. knows “only” got into Dartmouth, UPenn, Georgetown, JHU, and Cornell - and was devastated. I wish she were on this site because reading your son’s story might put it all into perspective.
That’s pretty sad.
soozievt: “there are schools he could consider safeties that are still selective such as Dickinson, Skidmore, Lehigh, Muhlenberg, Tulane, and University of Rochester.”
roshke: “Susan, Would you really consider these to be safeties?”
Yes and no. It depends on the student, doesn’t it?
It may be a matter of semantics, too, since I notice that some posters have divided lists into reaches and safeties, instead of including a middle tier of matches.
“That’s pretty sad.”
Yeah. Imagine how the other kids who were rejected from those schools felt, especially since this girl was the only one who got into Dartmouth, Georgetown, JHU, and UPenn.
MomWaitingforNew…that is indeed sad and misguided to think she “only” got into the likes of Dartmouth, Georgetown, JHU and UPenn. For someone who gets into reaches and calls them “only”, I cannot relate to at all.
Roshke, the categorization of reach, match, safety is relative to each student. What is one kid’s safety is another kid’s reach. The schools I was giving as safeties were ONLY safe for a student with the profile of Andison’s. Even then, having two safeties is wise, in case. I think of safeties as “likelies”. Andison had two matches…Oberlin and WashingtonU. I would have had more matches and two safeties on his list originally.
Roshke, I think a state U might be the ultimate safety for a top student but if the student is not interested in that school, it doesn’t make too much sense. The safeties need to be schools the kid wants to attend. For a top student, the safeties need not be easy to get into but just easy for that student. For instance, my oldest child was a top student. She had two safeties which are not safeties for all kids. The easiest of her two safeties was Lehigh. She visited Lehigh, met with the head of a department in her intended major, put loads of effort into specialized essays for that school, including a letter of interest in that school and received a likely type email in January and a very large scholarship (that we didn’t even realize they had merit aid) in April. Her second safety was not a guarantee but pretty likely for her. It was Conn College. Again, a visit, meeting with the head of the department, an interview with an adcom, meeting with the club leaders of her intended EC activity, etc. etc. and she did indeed get admitted. She treated these safeties in the same way she treated Yale and the like. She had 8 schools on her list. It did turn out that our state U, a really fine one, UVM, gave her a full ride because they give a full ride scholarship to every val in the state and she was one. She had no intentions of applying there, nor did the school meet what she was looking for in a college, even though many top students, including vals from our school go there. She had certain criteria that particular school did not meet. Since she had a full ride offer and free application, she filed it, but her list existed without the state U and she would not have applied to the state U except for the full ride offer, and free application that required no extra work (she did nothing really for this school…no visit, etc. because she was in without applying). She got Honors College there (they take 100). While you could say state U was on her list, her list really existed without state U and if they had not offered her the free ride, she would not have formally sent in the application because her list was made without it.
I think that a student like Andison can have two safeties of the sort I mentioned, if he ALSO has some matches. I think between them, at least one should come through in all likelihood. It is too chancy to have all reaches and two matches. If one has three matches and two safeties of the sort I mentioned that are appropriate to THAT student in terms of odds (not to all students), it is a well balanced list. Someone who is not a top student will need safeties of a different sort. Problem is that I keep seeing top students calling schools like Georgetown, Tufts, or JHU safeties! Those are not for anyone. For top students, they might be a “high match” or “easier reach”. My D applied to Tufts and we consider it a “high match” or “easier reach” even though she was a double legacy even. Tufts is not a safety. Nor is Georgetown, JHU, Berkeley, etc. I think that students who have Ivy on the brain (“Ivy or bust”) …definitely NOT talking Andison’s in this case…feel that anything else is not only not good enough but also is “safe”. Hardly. The girl Momwaitingfornew knows fits that description.
How I wish I had found CC earlier, and read Andison’s inspirational and cautionary and instructive tale!
This year my son applied to eight schools, was denied at four, WL at three and got into his safety, which he DID love. That love didn’t completely make up for the rejections or the lack of choice. It was a cruel April, but the sun came out in May with an admissions offer from his preferred “match” which he will attend in the fall.
We completely understood the theory of reaches, matches and safeties; we just seriously misjudged where the lines were with respect to our son. I don’t think that is uncommon. As a non-minority, middle class kid from a good-but-not-great NJ public school with solid but not exceptional ECs, his numbers meant a lot less than we thought they did at the more selectibe schools. His stats for the “match” schools were right on target. It seems like the “soft” factors were where he went wrong, and those, are, I think the hardest as parents to judge realistically. To complicate matters, even the objective statistical measures at his original target schools–the ones we visited and invested time and energy in–increased significantly over the past three years, making them moving targets. Match schools we visited before junior year morphed into reaches by the time applications were due.
I have come to believe admissions is a lot like dating. You might have a general sense of what is attractive, but in the end you can’t really predict what makes a kid click with the more selective schools. (Or a school click with a kid, for that matter!) This is where kids with more experienced and informed parents and savvy, connected counselors really benefit. It will only get worse for the rest of us as the selectiveness of all the top-fifty colleges increases and moves on down the chain.
“It may be a matter of semantics, too, since I notice that some posters have divided lists into reaches and safeties, instead of including a middle tier of matches.”
I think for top students it does sort of end up this way. My son for example is in the top 1% of his class - his PSAT scores are in line for NMSF - he’s got okay ECs (including state level medals at Science Olympiad) and real work experience computer programming.
His counselor has basically divided his list into Reach/Match. The schools that are reaches for everyone, but he’s got the stats for them. (MIT, Stanford, Caltech etc.), and then the Match/Safeties (RPI and Worcester). I think he’s a shoe-in at RPI given statistics from our school in past years. Hope I don’t eat my words here next year!
I would have. But, Andison’s glaring strength was music. He was applying as a non-conservatory, non-music major student at Oberlin. Thus, it was the one place that probably doesn’t value music ECs at all, since they have a full conservatory of those kids. I know it doesn’t sound intuitive, but that’s where building a list has to be an individual thing.
Always ask: What does this college need that I can offer?
I guess it just comes down to comfort level, then. You’re right, though, there were lots of kids who thought of our flagship state university as their reach, whereas for my son it was definitely his safety. Still, I can’t help it, for me a true safety, especially for a kid who definitely does not want their state u, would be a notch below schools like Lehigh in selectivity. In the middle of the toughest college admissions seasons in history, and especially for kids like Andison in overrepresented geographical areas, it would allow me to sleep better at night.
interesteddad - I don’t know that most GCs or parents would have made the distinction regarding Oberlin , but you are right, it’s an important one.
I agree with InterestedDad about Andison with regard to Oberlin.
Roshke, perhaps you are right that it was no sure thing to get into Lehigh as a safety but I felt with TWO safeties and a few matches, at least one would work out. They ALL did. I think my assessment was accurate. Lehigh went out of their way to attract her as their offer of admissions included a big scholarship offer, and some other award designation, which implies she kinda stood out in the crowd of the typical Lehigh applicant and she did. It was a likely school for her. But since it was not a guarantee, she had another safety. One of her matches also seemed to be reasonably a good chance and that was Smith. I think that assessment came true when she was offered one of the 50 Stride Scholars there. She was NOT a recruited athlete at Smith (nor anywhere else) but she contacted the coaches in her three sports at Smith and met with them on visits and they were very encouraging (that is no guarantee either).
I think how each school fits on one’s reach/match/safety continuim is very individualized. I felt with my D’s list that she would get into at least one school. It did not feel like a huge gamble. She applied to 8, got into 6, waitlisted at one, deferred EA and then denied at one. Those results indicate to me that her list was reasonably put together. I’m not counting that she also was admitted full ride to state U. I think most kids who have a well balanced reasonable list and put together very good apps that are individualized to each school usually will not be entirely shut out of a school to attend. They may not get into their favorites and nobody is a sure bet at an elite school, but most very good students should end up with at least one admit if their list is the right list. I even feel this way with students who are poor students (as in poor stats, really poor stats). I have had several clients who fit that profile and even they got into some of their schools. If left to their own devices as to where to apply, they likely would have been shut out as they had schools they wanted that NO way could they get into. But with the right list, they still had many denials, but they did get into some schools.
I also had a child who did not do ANY of what I am advising. That sounds very very odd, I know. But she was in an entirely different situation. She was applying to BFA in musical theater programs. All of these have admit rates worse than most Ivies…all admit anywhere between 2-10%. Therefore, all are reaches. Some have stronger applicant pools or reputations than others, but all have very low admit rates. Talk about sleeping at night! Those who apply to these programs often need to also have a BA school or two as a fallback. My D did not. But each kind of student differs. We felt that of her 8 BFA programs, she was likely to get into one. It was risky but we assessed her as an appropriate candidate for these very selective programs. Again, I feel her list was appropriate because she applied/auditioned to 8, was accepted to five, accepted to one school but not the desired program within the school, waitlisted at one, and denied at one.
I really believe that each case must be evaluated individually. That is why a list for one kid is not the right list for another. What is a safety for one is not for another, and so forth.
i’ve seen lehigh mentioned a couple of times now as a “safety” for top students. just to get some perspective: for the class of 2009 - approx 38% of applicants with 1500-1600 SAT’s WERE NOT ADMITTED!! 33% of applicants in the top 10% of their class WERE NOT ADMITTED!! <a href=“http://www3.lehigh.edu/sharedmedia/PDF_Files/LUadmissions_class_summary.pdf[/url]”>http://www3.lehigh.edu/sharedmedia/PDF_Files/LUadmissions_class_summary.pdf</a>
of course we don’t know how these two groups correspond - but its hard to imagine that they were all lopsided applicants.
if 1/3 of students with top credentials are still being rejected, i don’t know if i would consider that a “safety.” does a top student have a pretty good chance of admissions - yes – but should they count on getting into a school where so many top kids are rejected?
this goes back to a point i’ve made a number of times before – to truly assess a student’s chances at a school you have to not only look at how they compare to those accepted – you also have to look at how they compare to those who are rejected!! (though sadly, not all schools make that type of info available.)
Any college that accepts less than 50% of its applicants cannot be viewed as a “safety” for anyone. Match, yes – safety, no.
I also think that the “love thy safety” concept can be a problem in developing the list – that may be hard to accomplish in the fall when hopes are high. For a student who does not feel great about the safeties, the better approach might be more safeties, with a broader range of colleges – so that if it comes to that, there will be several to choose from. That was my daughter’s approach – she didn’t really want to attend any of her safeties, but she had a good variety and they were all schools with something to offer.