That’s why I reposted jonri’s comments at the beginning of this thread. As interesteddad said, it’s counterintuitive. Oberlin is a very popular destination for the kids at our hs, and several of andison’s friends applied and were accepted. They were all dumbstruck that he didn’t get in while they did! Of course looking back, it’s pretty obvious now, why. One wanted to play on their tennis team, one was a writer etc. THEY had interests that Oberlin was more in need of. At the time we were thinking along the lines of ‘great academics and lots of music!’
Lehigh is an excellent example of a school that can be both a match/safety, depending on how the student approaches the application. Once upon a time, Lehigh was a safety for Ivy applicants, but, as its reputation grows nationally, this is becoming less and less common. For my d, Lehigh was a “safety” only because she took two classes there, and received As; she had a proven record there. However, we treated Lehigh more like a match simply because we knew that the percentage of acceptances would be going down. For the second year in a row, Lehigh had a higher yield than predicted, which means that next year’s acceptances will be even more selective.
As for the rejected applicants with high SATs at Lehigh, this is not a “Tufts Syndrome” situation. Like many top schools, Lehigh looks for fit in its applicants, and that includes stuff that goes beyond SATs. You have to visit the school, get an interview if you can, and be strong in your ECs before it can become close to a “safety-match.” I know of two boys from NJ who received almost identical SATs (near perfect in math, mediocre in CR) and similar grades. The boy who came from a better hs, played three varsity sports, and was much more socially outgoing did NOT get in, probably because he showed no interest in the school. He never had an official visit, and he spent minimal time on his application. He was interested in engineering, but had nothing other than high test scores to demonstrate that interest. The other boy DID get in, mostly likely because he took the time to visit the campus twice, once for an interview where he expressed how much he wanted to go to Lehigh, and arranged for meetings with profs. He labored over his application. His ECs showed his passion in engineering. For the first boy, his guidance counselor told him Lehigh was a match. For the second, the one who got in, Lehigh was considered a reach. (BTW, my d., who had better test scores and grades as well as coming from an even better hs, did get in, although she won’t be going there.)
I would never advise anyone to treat Lehigh like a safety, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t one for some students.
The kind of analysis Interesteddad gave about Oberlin is so beyond what kids are getting from the vast majority of counselors, but makes so much sense. It is a great (altho sort of frightening) example of how much careful thought needs to go into compiling “the list”.
There are two basic questions an prospective applicant needs to ask: What would the college do for me? and what would I bring to the college?
Most applicants ask only the first question, so there are many spurned suitors among them. Interesteddad suggests students ask the second question as well. What does each applicant has that college x might value? And since each college might value different things at different time, this accounts for much of the seemingly crapshoot nature of admission decisions.
Donemom you have NO idea how many times this exact thought has gone through my head!! Even at our excellent high school, the advice given by the counselors doesn’t come close to touching on this. They’re still looking it at it as a pure numbers thing- GPA, SAT etc. Our counselors are way overbooked but even still, both my boys sought out their feedback on an individual basis and they weren’t given this kind of information. It’s also one of the reasons why I don’t totally support the kind of on-line college application help like Naviance that our school has started using. While the information it provides about the stats of the previous grads getting into specific schools is more “local” since they just pertain to our high school, they still don’t look at the strategic aspect.
My post about Oberlin is a good example. If I were to look up my son’s stats on the high school Naviance program he would stand out clearly above the kids at our school who have been accepted in the past.
Unless it is a very small high school, I think it is expecting too much of the high school g.c. to do the sort of strategic thinking we are talking about, apart from giving the students some sort of general guideline. I mean - they simply have too many students to deal with, and rarely do they know the students well enough to make the sort of suggestions that might help shape a more individualized process.
I think my daughter’s counselor did a good job, but he is also the one that tagged a college that waitlisted her as a “match” rather than a “reach” – if he had taken the time to look a little more in-depth, he would have seen that my daughter had a problem with her high school record that would be a barrier to admission. (We did see it and tried to rectify it – but obviously our effort wasn’t quite good enough).
But I simply didn’t expect the counselor, who barely knows my d, to be able to do that kind of fine tuning. He did do a good job of general advising, and I think he did a fantastic job of writing a recommendation. He also makes a point of letting families know about the annual “Colleges that Change Lives” tour, which I think is a great service for families new to the process – all of the colleges that participate are terrific match/safety schools for high-state kids, as well as being good target schools for kids with more modest stats.
But it really does keep coming down to safeties, not just matches. Yes, it would have been nice if Andi’s son could have had a broader range of matches – but the one thing that would have guaranteed an admission last year would have been an application with an absolute safety. Now we all know that the problem is that he might not have wanted to go there – and in hindsight, it certainly is better that he took a year off and is now going to MIT rather than having “settled” for UMass or whatever his safety might have been. But I think the point of the thread is that while gap years can be great, no one wants one forced upon them because of lack of any other choices.
So true. While it was most definitely better that he took the gap year and ended up at MIT, it would have save him ‘some’ amount of grief and humiliation if he could have made that choice.
I wouldn’t expect that public school GCs would have the expertise and time to give to students like this and I’ve never complained about our GC- just wishful thinking on my part and perhaps a reason for for some to either read CC or hire a private counselor.
In the case of his acceptance at MIT andison will “get” good science, math and music education and what he will “give” aside from science, math and music skills, which the students there typically have, is good writing and communication skills, which aren’t as common there as at the other top schools to which he applied.
I haven’t sat on Oberlin’s admissions committee or anything, but the impression I get from visiting my kid there is that tons of students who are accepted and in attendance there have musical interests, including tons that are not enrolled in the conservatory. My daughter is herself one such kid. So whereas the musical interest is not a unique hook there, it is a pervasive common interest among students throughout the school. Which to me means it’s still good.
Personally I doubt that “non-unique exracurriculars” was the reason for the rejection. My guess it was probably more a lack of showing a real interest in the school. It’s a particular kind of quirky place, and I’m sure they care about a good fit to ensure happy students. I would if I were them, anyway. Maybe no passion shined through on the “Why Oberlin?” essay. that would be a real problem at that particular school, I would think.
As for “fitting right into a list like that”, not to split hairs but I believe Oberlin is somewhat more selective than the listed schools. At least my daughter, also a National Merit finalist, did not regard it as a safety of any sort when she applied, and was quite happy to be admitted.
It is generally an easier admit though, percentage-wise, than most of the other schools on Andison’s initial list. Which just goes back to the “no safeties” point.
What I took away from this experience is that , as others have mentioned, you need to have some relatively easier admit schools on the list that you love. But additionally, you need to have that love come through on your application. So they believe it.
Perhaps moreso for Oberlin than for some other places; due to its particular culture that some love and others do not love. You’d want to clearly prove that you understand the culture there and are affirmatively one of the lovers. Maybe he didn’t do that.
This need to particualrly cater to a school’s culture- this also wouldn’t show up in a Naviance database. So whereas I might differ as to whether this particular extracurricular was a plus or not at this school- I would agree that a more in-depth understanding of a school is important, beyond mere comparison of stats. The kind of understanding that comes from research and actual interest, and then shines through.
monydad you may also have a point there. The tennis applicant, for instance, went to vist twice and really put a lot of effort into it, as it was his first choice. Oh, and one thing that hasn’t been brought up, is that they have ED I AND ED II.
Andi:
I’m afraid I was not quite clear. By “what will I bring to the college” I mean “how will I be contritbuting to making the college community more… (pick your favorite concept).” For example, a student from the NE has more chance of being accepted at a Midwestern LAC than at a comparable NE LAC because the student will be bringing diversity to the Midwestern LAC but not to a LAC in his/her own area. A student interested in a major that is taught at the school but does not attract hundreds of students may have a better chance than an applicant who is competing for the larger but still limited number of spots in a popular department. And so on.
As you saw, what is a safety, match or reach depends on the individual
applicant. And not just in terms of academic profile but other aspects of the applicant.
The same thing could happen at Williams. Everyone knows it is the place for super-smart kids who excel in Div. III sports. So, perfect for the kid with strong sports ECs, right?
But, maybe not. A third of their freshman class consists of students who are on the athletic department’s list of likely 4-year varsity players. So, if your strength is athletics, but you aren’t good enough or committed enough to garner attention from the athletic department, you may be the last thing the admissions office needs. They are, literally, up to their necks in athletes and really need to fill all the other slots – like musicians, geeky science researchers, future philosophy PhDs, etc.
Or, pity the kid who centers his whole application around his love for economics – blissfully unaware that the number of Econ majors doubled at Williams last year and the school is in full-thrash mode to accomodate the surplus of Econ majors.
Moral of the story: research the schools. Find out what they have too much of…and what they need more of.
Marite-- Maybe I’m still not understanding you, but I believe, because one of andison’s professor’s mentioned it to him, that he brings very good writing and communications skills to the school–something not every math/science kid brings. No?
Andi:
My post was not really targeted at Andison; the post was intended to take off from interesteddad’s suggestion that applicants think about what each college is looking for–not in order to mold the applicant but in order to see where the best fit for both applicant and college lies. As someone else mentioned, it’s a bit like dating. Both sides need to bring something to the relationship and want to get something out of it. Obviously, at MIT, Andison’s great communication skills are highly valued.; I would also think that his interest in music would be a draw. You’ll be amused to know that when S returned his first problem set in his college physics class, the TF wrote in the margin: Even in Physics, <em>some</em> English is required.
Marite,
ah, OK, glad I asked for clarification- always a good idea 
Funny about the TA’s comment!!! LOL Although I’m sure your son is quite articulate- at least when he wants to be.
Monydad, I think you hit on a point that I was including in a previous post too and that is that showing interest in one’s safeties is just as important as doing so in one’s reaches. If a school thinks they are a tacked on safety, it’s not the same. My D explored each safety school in depth and wrote about why she wanted to attend that was specific to that school. She really considered all her schools equal in the application process and how she handled each one. She came across as really wanting to attend and articulated why. I think for a school like Oberlin, which isn’t even a safety, that fit and showing that fit would be important. If they perceive you are using them as a fallback and don’t come across as dying to attend, it can affect the outcome.
I also agree with Marite about the institutional needs. That’s why when people on CC analyze why a kid with one profile of stats didn’t get in over a kid with lesser stats, and can’t seem to understand why…there just is too much missing by just examining the stats of others. One would need to see their essays, recs, interviews and then what need that student might fill at the college. If someone is intending to major in classics and another person in economics, that may make a difference. If one is from Westchester County and another is from Mississippi, that might affect the outcome. If one is heavy in the arts and the school is heavy on athletes, that may tip the app in a certain way. That’s the stuff we can’t “see” when we see posts about Kid #1 with X stats and Kid #2 with Y stats. There are even factors beyond one’s control. Even WHO reads your app may make a difference. It is subjective after all.
That’s an important point, andi. I personally went digging for that info, which believe it or not, was not very easy to find in one place, especially the separate ED2 acceptance rates and RD acceptance rates. That is probably by design, in that the schools don’t want to discourage applications! In some cases there was a big advantage for ED 1 over ED 2. In other cases, there was not much difference between the two EDs, and in some cases, there was actually no advantage in applying ED at all. But in the majority of cases, RD acceptance rates were significantly lower for those schools that offer ED as an option. If you are considering such a school, and are applying regular decision be sure to know the RD acceptance rate, and not just the overall one!
The big USNews guide (the huge phonebook sized one) was the one resource I found that contained these stats, but they are not the most recent. For those, you can do a little digging on the school website or school newspaper articles (archive searches are good for this).
Soozievt, one can make that excellent point, which is certainly valid as a general matter. In the specific case of Oberlin though, I believe they may have reason to focus on fit more than some other schools might, irrespective of whether a particular applicant is a reach , match or “slam dunk” from a stats perspective. But this is just my guess.
This is really a wonderful and instructive thread… should be required reading! I’d like to highlight a comment from one the first posts that points out that the safety school is the most important school on the list. All too often safety schools are an afterthought, and when things don’t work out well at the reach end of the list there’s huge disappointment and despair. For those embarking on the college search process this year, it’s more important to spend time really working on the safeties - visiting, learning about their strengths and weaknesses, etc. than touring schools that reject nine out of ten highly qualified applicants.
I also appreciate andi conglomorating all her story into one thread. I had heard bits and pieces of it over the past several months but never knew the full story.
Her full story is so enlightening!
andi, I’m the first to admit that after only reading a few of your posts at first that I sort of rolled my eyes and thought “what a whiner.” I apologize for even thinking that! Now that I’ve read the whole thing I can totally understand where you were coming from and I think it’s a great public service to tell your whole story so others with younger kids can benefit.
and congrats to your son on MIT!