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<p>They definitely must be, because it can’t be easy to fill an entire staff of nurses with BSNs. They just aren’t as common as the AA degreed RNs.</p>
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<p>Exactly… admin - nothing that makes them a better health care provider per se.</p>
<p>If you want to see a real nursing racket, take a look at the new doctorate degree they’ve dreamed up… the DNP (Doctorate of Nurse Practitioner). Essentially, its a hyped up doctorate just so nurse practitioners can start calling themselves “Dr” in a health care setting. As proof of how ridiculous this degree is, I present exhibit A - the DNP degree can be ‘earned’ ONLINE!! How would you like if your primary care health care provider earned their degree online??</p>
<p>The nursing boards say that this is a great thing - they think DNPs can handle primary care as well as a physician (crap) because of their ‘holistic nursing focus’. So they say that they’re sticking to the nursing profession, but its actually the practice of medicine that they want to do without having gone to medical school. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>And to tie this back to the thread, these programs are reducing the number of qualified nurses that we actually need in healthcare, as these programs pull directly from the ranks of the RNs, even giving course credit for work experience. So as we are experiencing a nursing shortage, the BON is trying to get large increases in the number of DNPs…</p>
<p>To those who say that nursing openings are down, etc. etc - that’s due to the economy right now. Hospitals are trying to get away with as few nurses as they legally can, which is reducing the jobs. But you will always be able to find a job as a nurse, guaranteed. Especially in the next few years as the baby boomers’ second boom (retirement) hits.</p>
<p>In my area there is still a large shortage of nurses. Salaries are often over $100k not to mention that the “work week” is three 12 hour shifts. Sign on bonuses can be very large.</p>
<p>Nursing is a great major. In fact, it is one of the few majors that I would gladly pay full price for at most four year Universities. An undergraduate degree in nursing (BSN) can open the door to
most any graduate field.</p>
<p>There are probably many graduates with degrees in English, Psychology, and Philosophy with large student loans that are working in coffee shops. ;)</p>
<p>The only professional jobs posted recently in our area are in the health care field!</p>
<p>I looked at my paper’s website today. 41 openings for nurses (in a town of about 100k). Nurses of every kind. Not a single one required (or even mentioned) a BSN. There did mention experience or training in particular specialties. But the BSN was simply a non-issue.</p>
<p>As I mentioned, though, the rejects from the community college program often end up in the four-year ones, which are much, much easier to get in. (And all the folks who do the hiring know it.)</p>
<p>An interesting twist is that BSN nurses (the BSN being required in public health and school health jobs) are being laid off as the state and county budgets face massive cuts. So now they will find themselves competing for patient care jobs with AA RNs who may have substantially more patient care experience.</p>
<p>I don’t understand these rants against the BSN. Why shouldn’t nurses be college educated?</p>
<p>The guidance counselor in D’s school mentioned that acceptance rate in to the nursing program at UConn was about 10%. The average GPA and SAT scores required are actually higher than that required for someone applying as a “pre-med” major.</p>
<p>In New England, there is no way that anyone would think that a community college two year degree is equivalent to a four year University degree (BSN). </p>
<p>Most community colleges have no admission requirements. You pay the tuition and you are in! The caliber of students is much different for the most part.</p>
<p>That may be different on the West Coast…
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<p>I think it is GREAT for nurses to have more education, especially in the liberal arts. But I think for the most part the schools of nursing are selling a vocational product which is not only unnecessary, but, in a world of health care shortages, positively damaging to ensuring that our needs as communities and as societies are taken care of. </p>
<p>And, as the other thread shows, far too many students are being taken advantage of and taking on loans for BSN degrees that they will never be able to repay.</p>
<p>“In New England, there is no way that anyone would think that a community college two year degree is equivalent to a four year University degree (BSN).”</p>
<p>Yeah? Try getting into the two-year Nursing AA program at the Mass. Community College in Beverley.</p>
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<p>Not nursing programs.</p>
<p>mini, I’m curious. What are the requirements to get in? I’ve seen some amazing stats.</p>
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<p>Thats because a BSN program is usually run through an entirely separate School of Nursing that is different from the School of Letters and Sciences (or whatever your respective school calls it).</p>
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<p>Thats because the degrees aren’t equivalent (can’t slip anything past you New Englanders :rolleyes:;)). But an RN with an AA is equivalent to an RN with a BSN in terms of medical skill and knowledge, which is all that matters in the healthcare setting. BSNs, however, have extra classes in things like history, philosophy, etc. (i.e. general education requirements just like any other bachelor’s degree)</p>
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<p>Last I checked, an AA was a college-level degree. Again, the difference is in the basics like gen ed requirements and possibly some nursing research or administrative courses. They are functionally equivalent in medical terms.</p>
<p>It is still much easier to get in to a nursing program at a community college than to get accepted at a major University as a nursing major for a competitive high school senior applicant.</p>
<p>(The overall number of applicants at a community college may be higher, but my guess is that the overall applicant pool is significantly different.)</p>
<p>^ whats your point? Are you saying that a BSN will be a better RN by virtue of the college degree?</p>
<p>^ No. I was trying to dispute Mini’s ridiculous claim that the two year community college rejects get in to the four year programs. I would like to see statistics to validate that assertion.</p>
<p>I do believe that a BSN provides a better educated professional. Does that make them a better nurse? Maybe not. However, most positions around here (even entry level) do require a BSN. Certainly any management positions or advancement beyond the entry level positions require a BSN.</p>
<p>The local AA community college program near us, nobody below a 1800 SAT score is a direct admit. you can go to the school but your NOT in the nursing program till you either have the 1800 SAT or have a 3.0 or greater in the 40 + credits required to enter to be even Considered for transfer into the program. Our CC program is not a 2 year, it takes a minimum of 3 because very few are direct admits from highschool. There is a waiting list.</p>
<p>But here, there is much less of a waiting for the 4-year schools, which is why the cc rejects go there. The other reason is, frankly, because it isn’t only the cc rejects. Admission to the program requires 9 college courses before you can get in, whereas in the 4-year programs they can start as true freshman. </p>
<p>Can’t give you stats because they don’t exist. But we exist in an environment of nurses. We see it constantly (and there constant attempts to try to open up more places at the CC, but they can’t find qualified instructors at the price they are willing to pay.)</p>
<p>“mini, I’m curious. What are the requirements to get in?”</p>
<p>Nine college courses including biology, chemistry, communications, and bunch of other stuff. The year my wife got in, it required 8 As, and 1 A minus. In fact, my wife had to fight her way in, because she took one on-line course, and the top grade for the course was listed as A/A-. They originally counted it as an A-minus, and had they done so, she would have been denied admission.</p>
<p>We have a friend who entered the year before my wife. She was a Mount Holyoke graduate, biology major, magna cum laude graduate. Her grades in the prereqs were not high enough, and she had to repeat a bunch of them before she could get admitted.</p>
<p>mini,</p>
<p>you may find that times have changed…Unless you robbed the cradle, your wife applied a long time ago. ;)</p>
<p>I would love to compare the stats of the cc rejects that get in to the four year programs today!</p>
<p>By the way, I am not even sure that the two year AA community college in Beverly that you referenced even exists anymore. I googled the name, and nothing came up. </p>
<p>The most difficult nursing job to get in the country, is in a Boston hospital. Boston has alot of BSN programs in the city and the salarys are good. I work in a big Boston hospital in an ICU and I can assure you, they are not hiring non B.S nurses. It is a competitive area to get a job and a good degree matters. Sure you can go out in the community and get a job but these days, the degree does not get your foot in the door like it used to. It is worth getting a BSN and get experience in your college summers, it matters. I have a BSN and MSN and I am a staff nurse in an MICU, I’m challenged, paid fair for my large responsibility and work hard. We surveyed our unit and 35% of the staff had their master’s degree. The associate nurse’s were hired back in the 70’s and 80’s. These days nursing jobs vary in responsibilty and autonomy. By the way, the DSN is a very new thing. Columbia, I believe started it and this is not online and the joke that you make it out to be. These nurse’s are very capable and experienced and yes, I would definitely want to have them as my primary caretaker. They are taught very thoroughly and just as good as any MD. Most experience and expertise is gained in on the job training. An MD goes through 4 years of education, then practices, their undergrad education is almost a waste of their time. They then come out as a resident with no practical bedside comfort. A nursing degree, starts undergrad, then with practice and then these nurse’s go back to get 3 more years to get DSN. It is a competitive program to become accepted to and they want experience usually first.</p>
<p>“you may find that times have changed…Unless you robbed the cradle, your wife applied a long time ago.”</p>
<p>I would love to compare the stats of the cc rejects that get in to the four year programs today!</p>
<p>She has only been an RN for two years, and is doing great - actually, right now, she is earning more than I do - the nursing shortage is so bad that she has huge amounts of overtime, and weekend work if/when she wants it. (Did I mention they accepted NONE of her undergraduate credits?)</p>
<p>It’s tougher today than it was then because of all the laid-off folks seeking admission (almost none of whom have four years to spend).</p>
<p>ibnhf1, Thank you for your insight!!</p>
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<p>I apologize if this is dragging this thread off topic, but I want to respond to this. IBNHF1, I’m sorry, but your assertions are not founded in fact. An NP (whether masters or doctorate-prepared) being equivalent to a physician? Not even close…</p>
<p>You make it seem like med school is the end of clinical education for MDs, whereas in truth, residency is just the beginning of the 20,000+ hours of structured, supervised clinical education MD’s MUST have before being allowed to practice independently, after 4 years of undergrad and 4 years of medical school which covers so much more relevant information than the DNP curriculum. </p>
<p>They also must pass a multi-day, three part comprehensive exam to get licensed that covers everything from all the basic sciences to clinical practice, etc. Thats just for the license. To become boarded, there is a separate specific exam for your specialty.</p>
<p>On the other hand, a DNP student must have a BSN, an RN, usually some work experience, etc. They take a 38-40 unit course of study that includes things like “Health Economics and Finance” [Johns</a> Hopkins University School of Nursing | Academics | DNP |](<a href=“http://www.son.jhmi.edu/academics/academic_programs/doctoral/dnp/plan/]Johns”>http://www.son.jhmi.edu/academics/academic_programs/doctoral/dnp/plan/) and receive less than 1000 hours of clinical education. Thats it. No supervised residency. And they want completely independent practice rights… are you kidding me??</p>
<p>And to top it all off, the DNP licensing “exam” is a watered down version of the USMLE step III exam (only one component of the MD license), and 50% fail the exam. [American</a> Board of Comprehensive Care FAQs](<a href=“http://www.abcc.dnpcert.org/exam_performance.shtml]American”>http://www.abcc.dnpcert.org/exam_performance.shtml)</p>
<p>I understand that it sounds like I am ranting and that I hate the NPs, etc. But really, I simply cannot stand that they want to bill the NP degree as functionally equivalent to MDs. It is absolutely ludicrous. </p>
<p>You say that most expertise comes with on the job training - well that training needs to be backed up by years of hard science background. The problem isn’t with what the NP’s know - its with what they don’t know. They may be perfectly capable of plugging into a formula to manage someone’s chronic diabetes or something, but the problem comes with an abnormal presentation of something or a more complex issue that requires intricate knowledge of pathophysiology.</p>
<p>If you want to practice medicine and be equivalent to a physician, then go to medical school and be governed by the Board of Medicine, not the Board of Nursing.</p>