No High School Degree?

Parents Forum
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<p>OK, sorry to seem defensive. People do attack at times (the continuing thread of "homeschooling is SUCH A JOKE" on the CC homeschool board is one example).</p>

<p>Since my daughter was always directed at college, that is what I know best. I believe military enlistment requires a GED or other basic skills testing if there isn't a diploma from an accredited school (although admission to the service academies does not!). I would think a job that required a high school diploma would or could require the GED or do some sort of testing to make sure the applicant actually had the skills they need. They probably should do this with everyone, not just homeschoolers. In interviews, too, the applicant could be asked how the homeschooling was done, what resources were used, what the state review was, etc. -- someone pretending would have difficulty answering this.</p>

<p>If a student does know they want to get a job that requires a diploma, s/he can always find accredited umbrella schools that review the work done and issue the transcript. My umbrella school is headed by an unschooling libertarian (who happened to be a public school teacher), so he has never cared to get accreditation, though. </p>

<p>I would think if there were a problem with people claiming an education they didn't receive and the employer finds they can't do the job, that employer would tighten up employment reqs. But I've never heard that this is a problem. What I hear of is people claiming to have attended or graduated from a particular college and they haven't.</p>

<p>I'm not quite sure what sort of job there is now that calls for a high school education. Anyone? The simplest solution (if a problem actually occurs of professed home school graduates not having the necessary basic skills) would be to start asking for a GED or an accredited diploma, or to do some skills testing.</p>

<p>But again, I haven't heard of any employers complaining of this. </p>

<p>Maybe I'm just not keyed into the drop out community. (Couldn't they just claim to have graduated from a regular high school? How often do employers actually check?) I've only known one, a young man who simply didn't like the high school atmosphere and educational approach. He "dropped out," immediately took the GED test, and enrolled in the local community college, where he was very happy and did well.</p>

<p>Again, you might get more insight by asking on the homeschool board. Perhaps people there have dealt with getting jobs right out of homeschool high school or know people who have.</p>

<p>One other possibility ... I know that in situations where good academic standing is required, as in good student discounts for car insurance and employment of minors, the companies ask for a certification of home school status from the parent. I suppose a real suspicious potential employer could check with the parents of an applicant and question them, or at least confirm that the transcript was something they prepared. Come to think of it, I've known some people who have notarized their kids' transcripts just to make them seem more official.</p>

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<p>Can you take the hs courses via independent study, correspondence or some other way?</p>

<p>PE is probably offered every period of the school day. Ask if you can exercise some flexibility, i.e. 1st period M/W/F and 7th period T/Th or whatever works for you.</p>

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<p>emeraldkity4,</p>

<p>Is it me you think is being facetious? I assure you I homeschooled my daughter for over 5 years.</p>

<p>My state doesn't provide for the sort of review you mention. There are two basic possibilities here. Homeschoolers can have reviews with the local school system where they show proof of regular instruction. Or they can go with a state-recognized umbrella school that does the annual reviews. I opted for the latter, so I had no further dealings with the school system. There is no requirement for any testing.</p>

<p>There are some states that have no regulation of homeschooling at all. Parents don't even have to tell the school system they are doing it or once they inform them, that's it. There are others that have more regulation than my state, with curriculum review, testing, and the like. It really varies. As I noted before, homeschoolers perform the same no matter which regulatory scheme they are under.</p>

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<p>UW has a well known "young scholars" program. </p>

<p>"University of Washington Academy for Young Scholars (UWA): That's right, the University of Washington has two programs for underage students" (found at this link: <a href="http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1036606%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1036606&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

<p>Perhaps a conversation with them would be a good idea. </p>

<p>Some of us are not meant to follow the usual path - best of luck to you!</p>

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<p>I've been homeschooling for 10 years. Homeschoolers shouldn't be lumped together with "dropouts." (Many homeschoolers do not want to take the GED because of its "dropout" stigma). To be an "official" homeschooler in our state, parents have to file a form with their local school district, listing the student's subjects and schedule, and sign another form saying that they cannot hold the state responsible for the education/non-education of their child (!) and the students have yearly standardized testing in grades 3-9. I'm sure most states have similar requirements. I do not suggest that kids who "don't like school" should just quit and call themselves "homeschool graduates" and write their own transcripts. (But I guess they probably could. . .hmmm).
What is a diploma?<br>
It's a piece of paper that says a student has completed a course of study. What is a transcript? It's a piece of paper that lists the courses taken and grades received. Homeschoolers can produce these papers as well as schools can, and they are just as valid. Hometown High School's diplomas aren't printed in magic ink on magic paper. (Sorry if they told you that, but they're just not. And they don't guarantee that students who have them know their ABC's, or how to tie their shoes or anything else). SAT/ACT scores are more important to colleges than where your papers come from. </p>

<p>Obviously the OP is a serious student who has completed higher level work and should not be denied a high school diploma or participation at graduation for a lack of PE (jump-rope, or bowling?) or Family Life (contraceptives 101?) credit--but if those are the requirements in that district, it may be hard to get an exception. Grr. I feel your frustration. (This is the kind of "boxed in" thinking that leads a lot of folks who love learning--but hate pointless rules--to homeschooling). Good luck.</p>

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<p>If people are interested in seeing the homeschool regulations for particular states, they can look at <a href="http://www.nhen.org/leginfo/state_list.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nhen.org/leginfo/state_list.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>They are just as valid to the extent that they tell the truth. And this works both ways - schools sometimes succumb to the temptation to give passing grades to students who didn't earn them (athletes, etc), and the phenomenon of the social promotion is well-known. But the homeschoolers who write their own diplomas and transcripts, or whose parents do, are not impartial observers. They will be seen as self-serving or at least having a conflict of interest. That's why I was asking if there is any quality control over this process.</p>

<p>I have no evidence that this kind of abuse occurs among homeschoolers. My kids have always flourished in traditional schools, so I've hardly given home schooling any thought, pro or con. But given the common practice of job applicants forging or otherwise claiming false college degrees, I'd be surprised if this doesn't also happen at the high school level. And prior to this thread I hadn't really considered how easy that might be given the apparently accepted practice of writing your own credentials.</p>

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<p>I've discussed quality control before -- what colleges, the military, and employers do or can do if there were abuses. You haven't really answered -- you just keep repeating yourself.</p>

<p>I still don't know what good a forged high school transcript would get someone. Are there jobs out there that high school graduates can get but high school dropouts can't? This isn't a rhetorical question -- I really don't know. I doubt it, but stand ready to be proven wrong if I am.</p>

<p>Yes it is difficult to be impartial if you are grading your own child, unless you use curricula with objective tests (which may be chosen for this very reason) or outsource the coursework or evaluation (the same). Some don't grade for this reason and because they believe that colleges basically disregard parent-generated grades to begin with. I didn't grade my daughter.</p>

<p>In those cases where a demonstrated level of academic achievement is necessary, it is demonstrated.</p>

<p>For those who do grade, parents and schools, there are conflicts of interest, sure. But for schools, jobs, money and prestige are on the line if students fail. For parents, their children's futures are at stake. As a general rule, parents are far more motivated in making sure their children REALLY get a good education than any institutional school will be. A survey showed the primary reasons parents choose to homeschool is for a better education. Schools will just make things easier, change grades, or even cheat to promote the illusion of education. (I've heard there is a chapter in the book, Freakanomics, about teachers and cheating, but I haven't read it myself yet. There has been scandal after scandal where I live, and people consider it one of the best school systems in the country.)</p>

<p>I'm sure there are honest and wonderful teachers and administrators. But they aren't necessarily in control. </p>

<p>Perhaps the more interesting question is where is the quality control in public and private schooling? For instance, we have a new state test for high school graduation which is labelled "algebra" but is 6th grade math. Students are given study guides which are thinly disguised versions of the actual test, with the right answers. Still a significant percentage of the students can't pass! My son went through public school through 8th grade, then attended a boarding school in high school where he took AP Biology. Despite what was written in the curricula, he never got one word about evolution. He had to self-study this and several other large areas that would be on the test because his teacher, as with the public school teachers previously, "ran out of time."</p>

<p>It would be interesting to know the relevant percentages of homeschoolers versus other students who need remedial coursework when they get to college. I bet it is far higher for the regular students, although I've yet to see any statistics. Parents who homeschool can see any problems and are very motivated to correct them, however long it takes. Schools have to keep plugging along and pass the problems on to the next level. I suspect if homeschooled students were arriving unprepared at college (or MORE unprepared I should perhaps say) we would have heard something. Admissions committees would be admitting fewer or imposing more requirements (added SAT II tests, for instance). Instead, the trend is the reverse, with colleges becoming more and more open to homeschoolers.</p>

<p>My personal experience ... when my daughter was struggling in public school, the administrative response was to shift blame (the school blamed the central office, and the central office blamed the school) and to increase three of her grades. Hey, problem solved, right? They changed the grades, she passed -- they were perfectly happy with this. When I complained that they weren't teaching grammar, spelling, or vocabulary, the response was -- well we can't, that isn't a part of the curriculum. When I complained that the math textbook was poor, the response was yes it was, but that's the one we have to use.</p>

<p>Oh, I could go on and on. There is the entire mess of special education, where teachers are told to write vague, subjective goals so they can claim they have been met and parents can't successfully sue. I used to be involved with special education parents' groups and we were able to easily identify scores of instances where parents were outright lied to. We went to the administration and nothing changed. I found it interesting that the local gifted/talented association complained about the same sort of things as we did and also got nowhere.</p>

<p>If there were ANY instances of homeschoolers taking advantage of false claims, the NEA would be screaming about it and demanding legislation. It hasn't happened. They can't complain because on average homeschoolers are, according to all studies I've seen, significantly above grade level and score higher on all standardized tests.</p>

<p>So the quality control problem isn't with us.</p>

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<p>Yes, there are many such jobs. Pretty much all the blue collar jobs at my company require a high school diploma. Check the jobs board at some local employment office and you'll see dozens of jobs that require a high school diploma. Those public service ads that tell kids to finish high school to improve their job prospects are not kidding.</p>

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<p>Do you have any response to anything else I said? I feel like I'm arguing in a vacuum. There is no quality control problem with homeschooling. Why do you insist there must be if you don't have government involved? If this isn't what you are advocating, then what. I make argument after argument and you don't respond.</p>

<p>As far as these jobs are concerned, one, why is a high school diploma necessary? Two, if some particular skills are required, why doesn't the company test for those? A regular high school diploma by itself is no guarantee of anything. Three, is your company even getting any homeschoolers applying who don't have GEDs? Four, if they have hired any, have they proven more unable to do the jobs than those with regular high school diplomas?</p>

<p>If there were problem -- IF -- your company and any other could deal with it. You can come up with your own job prerequisites (a skills test, requiring a GED or diploma from an accredited source). There is no need to come up with government intervention mucking up a perfectly fine educational approach to try to solve a hypothetical "problem" employers could easily solve on their own (if it existed).</p>

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<p>coureur, I think the answer to your question is that there is nothing preventing dropouts from presenting themselves as homeschoolers. This puts the burden of proof on the homeschooler, which is an expected and surmountable problem. </p>

<p>A homeschooler applying for a job with an employer unfamiliar with homeschooling may need to work harder to get that job, than someone with a traditional high school diploma would. References would probably be checked more thoroughly and more weight would be put on the interview. </p>

<p>Of course, problems like this weigh into the decision to homeschool. Homeschoolers know they will be outside the standard track and will have to distinguish themselves from dropouts, but have decided the benefits outweigh those concerns. </p>

<p>That was certainly the case for my homeschooled daughter, who is now attending the college of her choice. I know many other homeschoolers in the work force, some in "blue collar" jobs, and they have had no problem legitimately establishing themselves as well educated members of their communities.</p>

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<p>You ARE arguing in a vacuum. As I said in post #19, I'm not arguing - I'm trying to find out information. I don't answer all your arguments because, again, I'm not arguing. You keep jumping in with sword drawn, eager to do battle with some enemy that's not there. </p>

<p>Nowhere did I "insist" anything about the need for government involvement in anything. Your lengthy indictment of public schools may well all be perfectly true, but it's not what I was asking about.</p>

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<p>Thanks, nan. That's what I was asking about.</p>

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<p>I'm willing the let the record speak for itself at this point. The subject matter has been explored and I don't think a meta-argument (an argument about whether there was an argument) will benefit anybody.</p>

<p>If you are satisfied now, that's great.</p>