Hmmm, if students have taken a loan they are doing do on their own volition or parents instructions. In short,Yale does not require students to take out loans for their education. Instead, Yale meets 100% of demonstrated need for all admitted students with a financial aid package consisting of need-based scholarships, term-time employment, and a student income contribution.
Most ivy league school endowments are smaller than Harvard, Yale and Princeton. The UT endowment, even considering the larger number of students, could still be described as comparable to the “poorer” (I use that term with great sarcasm) ivies.
Do Harvard people go around making similar comparisons with graduates from MIT too? Look our BA makes more than your BA. LOL.
By the way, kids who earn 700+ in all sections of the SAT graduate without debt at TAMU too, make tons of money and live in bigger homes that cost a lot less than homes around Boston. They are on President Endowed scholarships at TAMU, so graduate without debt even if their parents are making mid six figures or even 7 figure + incomes. So why not tell the parents this and see where they would rather send their kids?
People who have a financial incentive to send kids to an Ivy league are those making less than $100,000 or more than a million.
As far as the BA to BA comparison is concerned, many high potential kids will not earn a BA at TAMU just like most kids at MIT don’t earn BAs they earn a BS. This is because at TAMU one can earn a BA in Economics, for example, without taking too much math, science and Econometrics. However, those who earn a BS in Economics have to take calculus, Statistics, Computer Science as well as Econometrics etc. Similarly, those kids who go to business and Engineering schools also don’t earn BAs. Is this why your study wants to compare Ivy BA’s with State U BA’s? LOL
No, they don’t, because it’s a peer institution, TAMU, not so much. And you are making just a silly argument that most parents would choose your school-- they would not. Now, there are times when you might have the rare kid who could get into Yale, but it might make more sense (parents out of pocket contribution) but those are statistical outliers. As has mentioned plenty, in the majority of situations, for the average family, they would pay less out of pocket going to HYSPM, than their own state school.
At about 80k family income (national median family income is 60k, you would pay nothing out of pocket to attend these schools. All aid is via grant, and that would cover the tuition, room and board (about 64k total in 2015) RT tickets, books, fees and even a laptop. So, I ask you again, why is the average debt close to 25k, per student at TAMU? You got both and endowment and money from the state–if you are not using it to subsidize operating costs, then how do you even compare the two schools? You don’t, two different missions, student bodies and overall, and that’s the key term, overall, from top to bottom, a different level of student body and faculty.
Like I said, it is because a lot of students don’t have above 700+ in each section of the SAT (so they don’t make nmfs ) so they don’t earn President Endowed Scholarships. Those who do make nmf get a free ride. Similarly, lots of Aggie parents make more than $60k a year, so they pay close to full tuition, which is still a reasonable $10 per year.
It is not silly at all to a Texan, which is why A&M students are the happiest in the country. You apparently have no idea of how well UT and A&M graduates do without earning a BA. For example, I am looking at the 2014 US News and WR ranking of engineering schools and there isn’t a single ivy in the top 12, but I do see UT and A&M why is that? No 11, A&M spends over $900k per prof on research. In contrast, No 23 Harvard spends $700k. No 17 Princeton spends $675. Finally, your beloved Yale at No 34, spends a whopping $565k per professor on research.
I like the weather but then again I grew up in Houston. The winters are mild and I never had to scrape ice off my car. But, then again I did not choose Texas A&M for the weather and after the storms last year, I am sure no one chose Chicago for the weather either. If diversity is a goal then choose to go elsewhere. If you do not like warm weather, avoid the South. The whole point of this post (I thought) was to point out that a state school that is not an upper crust elitist school has produced quite a few CEO’s. I think Yale is a great school but they are very different (in size, in price, etc). I am glad there are choices for everyone.
If you are going to base your entire argument on engineering, that is fairly one dimensional, and provides a singular lens into the institution. As I keep on tacking back to, it’s the totality of the institution that creates the stoutness of education. Its the reason that a history or english major, at Yale will be recruited at a consulting firm like Boston or Mckinesey, with a starting salary with bonus, in the six figures. Why–because they (consulting firms, IB, VCs, start-ups) know they from top to bottom, in every department and major, the students are highly analytical and incredibly self-driven, and they have the intrinsic ability to learn most any technical topic. This does not happen at a place lioke TAMU…
I never said Yale engineering is the heart of the school or even if its top notch–it isn’t even the top 30 sphere–and maybe one of the weaker departments on campus. But, of the other 50 something majors, it is the standard bearer of excellence, and generations of former students have proved this out. Again, in closing, as I don’t want to have to rehash this redundant argument, they are totally different places, (e.g. one has a student to faculty ratio of 6 to 1, and a cost of instruction over 150K per student–the other–less so). So please enjoy all the amenities and attributes of CS…
And BTW, as you know, those are conscripted, and long historical,choices by your state and legislature to invest research dollars directly into engineering research, because of the conflation of the energy industry and the state. Yale directs itself with a little more measure and objectivity when choosing the balance of academic topics…e.g. it is not a regional state university but a global institution.
Okay…go to Yale for a great shot at consulting…go to TAMU for a great shot at engineering…head out to California for a great shot in the tech field in Silicon Valley…and on and on. Choices. We should be thankful we have them. I don’t think our economy relies only on a select few in any capacity.
Well, it is the old Agricultural and Mechanical (A&M) College, so that is its strength. I also agree that for high paying jobs in the north east (with big consulting firms and banks on wall street) it is best to attend an ivy league school. Although, top undergrad students from UT and A&M can always try getting an MBA from a top northeast schools after undergrad at UT or A&M.
My point was not to suggest it was comparable to an ivy league. My point was that people in the north, especially those our age, may have misconceptions about A&M. They may think it is the equivalent of an average state college with open admissions like it was in the early 80s because the admit rates are so high and the overall SAT scores are not sky high. I just wanted to point out, that from my point of view, it is academically more comparable to a NYU or Brandeis or Boston U today or a U Penn in the early 80s than the average state college or private u. Also, A&Ms graduates are very influential in Texas.
Your point is fine and well taken but we can all point to colleges in our own backyard where we could say the same. If I were to tell you that BC and Fordham and Seton Hall are disproportionately influential in the Northeast (even if most folks in Texas have never heard of them… or maybe just know the sports angle) you’d say “so what”. If I were to tell you that Williams (tiny Williams) dominates the art/museum/curatorial world even though most folks in Texas have never heard of it, you’d say “so what”.
It doesn’t make Williams the “peer” of TAMU in engineering, and it doesn’t mean that Catholic families in New Jersey are going to start sending their kids in droves to TAMU. It just means that this is a very, very big country and it is difficult to generalize and extrapolate from one’s own experience.
The fact that TAMU has increased in whatever rankings or its median SAT scores are now X vs. Y from 20 years ago is going to get a collective yawn in the state of California.
Which you’d agree with me is quite logical. Nobody in Texas is obsessing about UC Santa Barbara or arguing the merits of Santa Cruz vs. San Diego.
Although I have no dog in this fight (don’t know anyone currently at Yale and, like all right thinking persons, was a UT fan while living in Texas) I do have several family members who, through poor decision making or other unfortunate circumstance, ended up at A&M including among the younger generation two there currently (one an engineer) and one who will begin next year. A&M is certainly a great school, with a heck of an alumni base in Texas. I would agree that its rep is far greater than it was thirty years ago when I lived there. But Texas as a state ain’t what it was thirty years ago either. I don’t live there anymore, but I have a lot of family throughout the state and until recently did a lot of business in oil country. Will I buy that A&M (particularly engineering) is viewed at least as favorably as NYU or BU? Certainly, probably more so. But even in the Woodlands it ain’t Yale or Penn or Columbia.
Also, just a point of clarification but A&M’s endowment per student is no where near any of the Ivys. According to Wikipedia, A&M’s endowment per student is $179,000. Cornell, the “poorest” of the Ivy’s, has an endowment valued at $281,000 per student. A&M is certainly not in the same league with HYP, which have per student endowments of $1.7m, $1.9m and $2.6m respectively. Also, looking at USNWR’s ranking of undergraduate engineering programs, I see Princeton and Cornell tied at 10 with UT. A&M doesn’t appear on the list. On the graduate list it is 12th, right behind UT (as is only right and proper) and just ahead of Cornell and Columbia. But none of the Ivy’s made their rep pumping out MS engineers. That is MIT’s job.
By influential in TX, I mean it is among the top 5 universities with the highest SAT scores and percentage of hs students in the top 10% in the state of TX. In size it is probably the biggest. It is also one of the oldest colleges and has one of the biggest endowments… Consequently, its alumni play a major role in politics and management of businesses in the state. Therefore, grads from these schools find it easy to find employment in a state with about 30 million people. You could probably say the same about grads of MIT, Harvard, Williams, Amherst, Tufts, BC etc in Massachusetts. In NJ it might not be Seton Hall, but Princeton, Rutgers and Stevens etc. Although, NJ is kind of small, so graduates of schools in NY such as Columbia and U Penn in PA are also probably influential in it.
Ohiodad, as a state university, A&M is not dependent on its endowment to finance daily operations like private universities. Its world class endowment is separate from what it receives from the state. Since, A&M is the largest university in the state, it receives a lot from the state and usually on time since the state is quite wealthy and runs surpluses
I think it is a fair ranking. By the way, A&M is actually tied with Rice in 16th place on this somewhat subjective and slower moving “peer assessment” indicator. So, still quite good considering Harvard and Yale are 23 and 34. I think these peer assessments are colored by what these senior professors thought of Princeton and Cornell during their own undergraduate days in the 80s when Princeton and Cornell were very highly ranked. For example, U Penn is ranked only #30 when it is actually quite good now, but wasn’t in the 80s. I think this indictor is designed to be this way and provides a sense of history to these rankings.
So, now that we have established that A&M has the 11th ranked grad school of engineering (tied with UT) and that none of the Ivy schools rank higher. In addition, A&M undergrad engineering is tied at a respectable 16th place with Rice, behind 11th place Princeton, Cornell and UT, I think it would be fair to say that A&M has a world class engineering school that matches and rivals most Ivy league schools. So, like I said, it would be a mistake to think of A&M as just some average open admission state college.
“We’re not getting the return on investment that we’re making” in higher education, said Bill Hammond, the president of the Texas Association of Business, which advocates for education reform in Texas. Over the next biennium, that investment will total about $21.8 billion.
I see two lists, one for state schools with the highest graduation rates (approx.80% to 90%). The other list is for universities with the lowest graduation rates, ranging between 12% to 25%. Nice to see both TAMU and UT are on the first list. In contrast, schools such as the University of Houston Downtown with a graduation rate of 12.5% are on the second list. Thanks for sharing boolaHI