<p>Brooklynborndad, No,They can’t foreclose on your education but they can and should hold people accountable (including you and your daughter) for living beyond your means.It effects all of us.</p>
<p>As that she was accepted to the honors program with a scholarship she has been placed in a “win” situation. It’s all a matter of perspective.</p>
<p>This is her chance to be a shining star, a big fish in maybe not a HUGE pond. She can do research without worrying how much she will be paid, she can look for unpaid internships, she might have money for “study abroad”, she can enhance her education alot without fancing a huge debt of $80,000.</p>
<p>$80,000.</p>
<p>Huge and very possibly debilitating. Could affect which job or career path she takes, a major she couldn’t pick because it won’t be able to make payments of $1000+ a month for TEN YEARS.</p>
<p>And this is without any grad school loans.</p>
<p>She will not be burdening with the knowledge of the debt for all 4 years. That is a freedom that is being offered to her. And you as the parent have the responsibility of teaching her “fiscal responsibility”. Same when they were little and didn’t want to take the medicine when they were sick…</p>
<p>This is a large “purchase” that she hasn’t done before and needs your guidance.</p>
<p>$80,000 debt- NO
Take the scholarship.</p>
<p>Kat</p>
<p>I thought we were discussing advice to would be students and parents. I will trust banks, universities, etc to look out for their own interests. </p>
<p>Its unfortunate that a lack of regulation for systemic risk allowed the errors of financial insitutions to impact the rest of us. I hope that financial regulation reform will reduce that exposure. But thats a discussion topic for elsewhere. </p>
<p>I do not think this is the place to lecture people to be less leveraged for society’s interest. </p>
<p>Also, if there is a student loan “bubble” that is equivalent to the housing bubble, I would like to see evidence (IE links). AFAICT students have been taking out loans that y’all consider insanely unaffordable for quite some time. Some have defaulted, some have lived in poverty, happily or unhappily. </p>
<p>Any way, you do not know the details of my financial situation, and I am certainly not going to post them. Rest assured, that we are taking adequate account of the difference in costs. You needn’t lose sleep on our account.</p>
<p>I am incredibly conservative when it comes to debt and I realize that. I’m not saying that I’m right and everybody else is wrong, but my H & I have never come close to signing on to the amount of debt that we were eligible for (made our Realtor CRAZY!) </p>
<p>and I understand that an choosing an educational institution is not the same as researching the Best Buy washer & dryer on consumer reports. But…that $80,000 in debt is going to curtail things like: travel, entertainment, clothing, etc. for a very long time as an adult. I know law school grads who have chosen jobs that pay very well because they have big loans and are miserable every day of their lives because they have to get on that hamster wheel every day. </p>
<p>We knew my D would qualify for a full ride at a few institutions. We told her we could pay x amount per year. We also told her that we wouldn’t cosign for any loans over x amount if she had full rides sitting on the table. To some extent it’s a quality of life for 4 years vs. quality of life for the following 10 years type of conversation. And it’s not like the less attractive school is William Patterson University (no offense to any graduates of that institution.)</p>
<p>Yes, Brooklynborndad, We were discussing college. You brought foreclosure, flipping,etc. into the mix. I wish you and your daughter the best in reaching a decision about college choice.</p>
<p>“I am incredibly conservative when it comes to debt and I realize that.”</p>
<p>There is NOTHING wrong with that. Thats great.</p>
<p>"…that $80,000 in debt is going to curtail things like: travel, entertainment, clothing, etc. for a very long time as an adult. "</p>
<p>That is absolutely correct as well. I do not disagree.</p>
<p>Look folks, I am not running around advocating people get all the loans they can. Nor that parents refrain from teaching their children the dangers of debt or the value of frugality. </p>
<p>I am just having difficulty with the rigidity being expressed. </p>
<p>[Princeton</a> University - Link between income and happiness is mainly an illusion](<a href=“Link between income and happiness is mainly an illusion”>Link between income and happiness is mainly an illusion)</p>
<p>(note, thats not directly on topic, as its about income and happiness, not student debt and happiness, but you get the idea)</p>
<p>Happiness is driven mainly by personal approach to life, relationships, things like that. It really, afaict, does not correlate to financial position or even credit rating as much as people think. </p>
<p>And you can do be debt free, and still find yourself in financial difficulties, given the uncertainties of life. What is most important to teach our children, IMHO, is resilience, and keeping an idea of who you are, and what you are about, whatever happens to you. </p>
<p>So really, the question of how much debt to take on, and thus, what school to attend, is an INDIVIDUAL one. It depends what the school, its program, etc mean to you, both in terms of career AND the broader goals of an education. And, yes, is the young person involved capable of living without vacations, cars, etc, etc. </p>
<p>I am going to be talking to my DD about the implications of her decisions on her situation when she graduates, and comparing that with the detailed differences in the educational experiences. I certainly expect her to make a rational, considered cost benefit analysis.</p>
<p>I laugh in a very sympathetic way! I like cashmere. I can’t afford cashmere so I wear cotton. I am fine with my choice for me. </p>
<p>But for my kid. . . for my kids I want the moon, the stars, and all the blessings the world has to offer. </p>
<p>So, one S has a cashmere sweater I found on ebay for $16. I’m still wearing cotton. Wish there was an ebay NYU slot for you to bid upon . . .</p>
<p>actually, sevmon, RobD mentioned the subprime crisis first.</p>
<p>I was responding, half facetiously (I certainly do not advocate taking out loans with the intention of defaulting, but I do think that there are intrinsic advantages to education over other investments, in that it DOES, ideally, become a part of you, and not something that can be taken away. And no, I do not consider taking out loans with the RISK of defaulting, a risk itself subject to rational analysis, to be immoral. Its been part of business practice since the Renaissance. Of course there are some people who find the idea of debt in general, and fractional reserve banking in particular, to be immoral. I am not one of them. ) </p>
<p>Apparently I pressed some folks buttons.</p>
<p>Hey, keep pressing those buttons! I have enjoyed your posts about rational analysis and the Renaissance!</p>
<p>
NYU is . . . in New York City. There are drugs there.</p>
<p>If there is a way for your d to go to NYU without taking out loans of this size, then maybe you’d be willing to sacrifice for her.</p>
<p>Is it possible to suggest that she go to UVM for two years and then try to transfer to NYU? That would cut the loans considerably. (And in that time, she may find that she’s happy at UVM!)</p>
<p>Brooklynborndad - I think on this one, you need to separate fact from emotion. Save the money for grad school or to help her buy her first house. </p>
<p>Was the application to UVM your idea or hers? If it was hers then help her to recall why she thought it was a great choice. This is a great reminder to all parents and kids…do NOT apply to a school you are unwilling to attend.</p>
<p>FYI - there are drinking and drugs at every college (and high school).</p>
<p>No, bkdad, I would not be happy living in an attic. Particularly if I had paid thousands and thousands of dollars to a college to help prepare me for a better life. I could afford an attic working a minimum wage job, I wouldn’t have to pay thousands to do that. I could be true to myself, but have no debt to use your example.
Does everyone think my way? Does everyone attend college to have a better career? Heck no. Some just attend college for the joy of learning. But for those who don’t, I recommend a manageable debt that leaves room for lifestyle rather than mimicking Anne Frank.</p>
<p>If we want to think of education as an investment, let’s remember what an investment is- A product or service purchased solely with the intent of profiting from that purchase. I cannot agree that living in an attic so one can pay off one’s debt is profiting from the purchase.</p>
<p>When I brought up the subprime mortgage issue, I wasn’t trying to talk about defaulting per se. I was just trying to illustrate that some adults have a hard time wrapping their heads around large dollar amounts, long term debt and how that factors into their daily lives. I think it’s naive to think that our 17 or 18 year olds really understand what having $1000/months in student loans will mean for them when they begin their adult lives. Especially given the financially uncertain times we live in. </p>
<p>There are a lot of students graduating college/grad/law/med school in 2010 who were comfortable with their debt numbers going into their education because the couldn’t foresee what would happen in 2008 & 2009. Could things change dramatically for the good between now and 2014 when our kiddos will graduate college? Of course, but as I mentioned before I err on the side of caution.</p>
<p>Valemom: what is your D’s intended major/career path BTW? That could be another thing to consider based on projected earnings.</p>
<p>Nice post from Chedva - on both points.</p>
<p>I agree that $80K in loans is not reasonable. But instead of rationalizing a choice that seems to be getting characterized as a hardship, I think someone needs to extol the virtues of UVM and Burlington.</p>
<p>UVM is a solid state flagship U, of a size that’s more typical of a mid-sized private than a flagship. It sits on a hillside looking out over an absolutely stunning panorama of Lake Champlain. Burlington combines the charm of Vermont with many of the resources of a medium-sized city and a college town. The quality of life at UVM, in Burlington, and in Vermont strikes me as exceptional. And the scenery is hard to match.</p>
<p>You’ll find drugs and alcohol at at every campus. The key is to affiliate with peer groups that share your values and your academic and extracurricular drives. Personally, I’d take UVM over NYU even up, but for an $80K difference . . . yes, it’s a no-brainer.</p>
<p>NYU is very, very expensive, and is known for gapping kids like this. And, believe me, her living expenses in Manhattan will be much higher than in Burlington, so the $20,000 difference isn’t the end of the story. (Of course, her earning potential from part-time jobs is probably higher in Manhattan, too.)</p>
<p>Vermont and Burlington are great, though. Seriously, people love it. Starting about 20 years ago, some of my relatives started going to UVM, and a bunch of them never came back. I have 8 cousins (counting kids) in Burlington now.</p>
<p>Just need to pop in and say: BBD, please, please, please have your child think long and hard about being 120k in debt before starting a career as an architect. Starting salaries (and even mid-career salaries) just cannot support that kind of debt.</p>
<p>NYU is not much better than UVM. And believe me, kids there drink plenty.</p>
<p>OP, it seems you were offended by some of the replies, and I’m sure no one meant offense or to be “lecturing you on frugality.”</p>
<p>You op seemed to be posing a fairly straightforward choice – 80K in debt or the less desireanble school. Most of us were simply trying to say, “The Latter!”. I"m sorry if you felt offended, but we gave the advice/opinions you initially asked for.</p>
<p>Brooklynborndad,
Unless you are willing to take on the 80k in debt yourself (which is an option), don’t let her go to NYU. It’s just not worth it.</p>