Nomination Order

<p>I am applying to all five of the Federal Service Academies, although I desire admission to the United States Naval Academy. That being said, I certainly would be more than ecstatic to receive any Nomination to any academy, but I worry that my order of choices may affect my chances of receiving a Nomination.</p>

<p>I'm sure most of you realize that the USNA has relatively higher academic standards than the USMA, and the USAFA has slightly lower physcial standards than the USNA and USMA. I'm not too clear about the USMMA. Ultimately I end up with a list of competitiveness from most to least:
USNA, USMA, USAFA, USMMA.</p>

<p>Not suprisingly, my order of choices follows this same progression. I believe I have a very healthy chance of gaining admission to the USAFA, but I worry placing it as my third choice may jeopardize my chances of receiving a Nomination. Further, my fourth choice, the USMMA, which it would appear I have little interest in, I would be more than content to receive admission to this institution.</p>

<p>Does anyone believe by ordering a more competitive academy higher on my list risks losing a Nomination to a less competitive one down the list? I really intend on going to the USNA, and realize that moving it to a lower ranking will severely impair my chances. I really want to ensure admission to some academy (I believe I could without a doubt receive a Nomination for the USMMA), but I simply don't want to give up my chances of getting into the USNA. </p>

<p>My CFA scores are not terribly high, should this affect my choices?</p>

<p>This depends partially on where you live. In highly competitive districts, candidates may receive only one service academy nomination. In this case, the order of preference is important. In others, they may received multiple nominations.</p>

<p>Discuss this with your BGO to understand the process in your district. It may be the same MOC selection committee for all the academies, in which case they can take your rank order list into account.</p>

<p>I don't believe you can actually compare the academics at any of the academies. </p>

<p>I don't know if you've looked into it, but if you have you should know that USNA and USMA are basically incomparable when it comes to their academics.</p>

<p>ragmanlaw-The following was posted by Hobbs back on May 3 in the USMMA thread. - Thought it might give you insight as to USMMA. Don't assume its the easiest place of all of them. Sorry about the long post but I think it might be helpful with your application decisions. Each academy offers a somewhat different path with academics that can't be compared and they are ALL very very difficult as are the rest of their standards. Our son applied to all three of the maritime academies as thats where his interests are. He ended up at USMMA as it was his first choice. He did receive nominations to USNA as well even though USMMA was listed as first choice on his paper work. </p>

<p>No one replied to this one yet; you all seem to have lots of questions about indoc, plebe year, etc, so i thought i'd try and help.</p>

<p>First, in my biased opinion Kings Point has to be the hardest of the Service Academies.</p>

<p>The regiment is tough and it's demands are sometimes ridiculous. Athletes are hardly pampered compared to other service academies. Academically you're looking at, on average, 18 credit hours per trimester. Each trimester is 13 weeks long. Compare that to EVERY other academy who has the semester system. You spend 9 trimesters in residence at Kings Point taking academics. Other colleges, academies included only have 8. Then wrap a year of academics into 360 days at sea with no instructors.</p>

<p>You'll spend a year at sea, travelling around the world. You'll be in a very micro environment with different standards and different people. You'll go to foreign lands and work with some of the smartest and dumbest people ever. Basically, you'll be in the real world learning your trade which is the safe navigation of a vessel, it's crew, and ithe hundreds of millions of dollars of cargo across an entire ocean. I've never been an ROTC cruise or academy cruise but I suspect it's not the same. The level of responsibility between a young 22-year-old 3rd Mate, fresh out of school, standing watch, at night, in the fog, on a 95,000 ton tanker is quite different from that of a fresh Ensign who is a Division Officer on a navy frigate. To say your better trained coming from Kings Point in terms of shiphandling, navigation, seamanship, all things related to the water, when compared to your USNA/ROTC Counterparts is an understatement. You will have the opportunity to intern with a F/A-18 squadron, or spend a month on a Nuclear Carrier.</p>

<p>The academics here are difficult, and somewhat narrow. You're not going to find a English or History Major, but on graduation day you'll find 180 new officers who have experience that is underrappreciated by them, and uncomparable to their ROTC counterparts.</p>

<p>What does this have to do with Plebe Year? You must be ready physically, and mentally. There have been stronger athletes who have cried and failed in the first day. There have been weaker kids who've made it where that guy failed, and graduated without every approaching PT stud status. Knowing your taking on a superior challenge and knowing you'll leave here with some of the best training available will hopefully give you all something to reach down inside for when you've been brought to the edge and your ready to quit. You'll find new meaning to motivation, spirit, discipline, and pride.</p>

<p>Indoc is no where near the end. In fact it's the easiest time you'll have here. Guaranteed. Plebe year will test your endurance, morally, mentally, and physically. Your accountable to someone, if not several people at all times. However your only responsible for yourself. Moving through your senior year you may find yourself looking after 150 different people, their welfare, their training. At the end of the four years you'll look back and wonder how it could pass so quickly and transpire so lengthily at the same time. You'll change physically. You'll be sharpened mentally. You'll be hardened morally. And you may not realize any of this until you step out of the gate when you see the type of person you've been molded into in this 4-year crucible stacked up to your 'nasty civilian' counterpart. No, civilians aren't nasty, but you'll definitely experience something that very few people have.</p>

<p>Kings Point's small size produces one of the best, varied, tight-knit, and powerful alumni anywhere. Kings Point graduates have been to every war. They've been around the world and across the oceans. They've been to space. They've run companies and made millions. Anyone read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad"? They've worked for NATO, the White House, Exxon, you name it. And no one will mean more to you than the guys and girls you came here with and made it through here with. NO ONE makes it through alone.</p>

<p>Most importantly perhaps, Kings Point is not for everyone. Your going to find a broad variety of people here. Army and Air Force have their future 2nd Lieutenants. Navy and Coast Guard have their future Ensigns. Kings Point has 180 young men and women who came here for 180 different reasons and could be employed doing 180 different things.</p>

<p>Why am i telling you all this?</p>

<p>Four years ago i sat where you all sit wondering if i should take the leap. On the 20th of June I'll graduate. A scant 48 days away, after 4 long, sad, strange, wonderful, amazing, painful, short miserable, awesome years. The fine details about plebe year will all come and go before you know it. Enjoy your life now because if you take this journey you'll finish as a different person.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>ragmanlaw: Please be careful in trying to "game the system." Listing your order of preference to your nomination sources based on your limited understanding of how competitive each academy may be is likely to backfire. </p>

<p>KateLewis is correct to note that in the more competitive states, your MOC's may routinely choose not to give one candidate nominations to multiple academies in order to provide the most possible opportunities to the applicant field. If this is the case, listing USNA as anything other than your number one choice means you won't have a chance because you need that nomination before USNA will even consider you eligible to compete.</p>

<p>Your MOC's make their nomination decisions independent of the Academy application process. They will have no insight into your CFA score. They won't even know if you have qualified with DODMERB. You are competing with the other candidates from your state strictly on the basis of whatever materials your MOC requests, which may include transcripts, letters of recommendation and essays.</p>

<p>Honesty is not only the honorable way to go, but is also your best chance to reach your dream. If your MOC applications are like most, you have several essays to write so the "rank order your choice of Academy" probably isn't your only opportunity to make your position clear. Use your essays and your interview to pursuade your MOC's board that USNA is your primary objective, but that military service is your ultimate goal and you that would be honored and excited to attend any of the other academies as well. </p>

<p>Are you concerned that you will get a nomination to USNA and then not get an appointment (thereby missing a chance at one of the other academies?) This can happen regardless of how qualified you are. The reality is that there are more qualified candidates with nominations than there are openings at any of the academies in a given year. Also, there are candidates turned down each year who have stats that are higher than another candidate who is appointed. </p>

<p>It's been said on this board before but is worth repeating: each year the military chooses the candidates that they need and there is no way to predict in a given year just what that pool is going to look like. So your course of action should be clear: answer every question with total honesty, do your best in every aspect of the application process, approach every step with determination and passion. And then join the crowd waiting...</p>

<p>ragmanlaw asked: "Does anyone believe by ordering a more competitive academy higher on my list risks losing a Nomination to a less competitive one down the list? I really intend on going to the USNA, and realize that moving it to a lower ranking will severely impair my chances. I really want to ensure admission to some academy (I believe I could without a doubt receive a Nomination for the USMMA), but I simply don't want to give up my chances of getting into the USNA."</p>

<p>? Could you be confusing nominations with appointments? I'm confused. In either case, It remains to be seen if you can obtain a nomination from within your district due to the competitive nature of the process. Might want to take at look again at how many apply verses how many actually get in. Pretty tough odds. Study up on which academy offers what and pay close attention to oiixxg posts answering any question you may have. Oiixxg, you peg it every time! You're goooooood!</p>

<p>ragmanlaw: bravo for your motivation for wanting a military academy; best of luck with the process. </p>

<p>Must make one minor comment however re: your post: "I really want to ensure admission to some academy"....</p>

<p>time for a reality check: there is no assuring anything. </p>

<p>as so many on these threads have noted, it all depends on what the academy boards are looking for- they all want motivated, intelligent, fit, enthusiastic, tenacious, honest, ethical, competetive leaders with integrity that have the ability to follow some and lead others in very difficult circumstances as future officers...and those, in large part, are the candidates they attract...over 11,000 people very much like "you" to pick and choose from...I will share something our son said to his BGO...he said he was "one of the lucky few of the deserving many..." and his words continue to ring true...</p>

<p>oixxg said it best: trying to "game" the system might very well backfire; the way you "rank" your nomination requests will ultimately affect only you and perhaps where you will end up......so I would have to ask why would you rank other than by where you want to be?</p>

<p>The system, believe it or not, works....and if you have the qualities they are seeking, they will find you....they have been doing it a long time....there is no "back door" or "magic formula"...your record will speak for itself, whether at the academies or at the nomination committees. </p>

<p>So I guess this is a very long winded response to my 2 cents worth: figure out where you want to be 5 years from now, and then figure out the best route FOR YOU...speak to someone who really knows what they are doing...your BGO comes immediately to mind...and lay your cards on the table as honestly as you can...listen to their advice, then let the system work.... </p>

<p>and while you are waiting, use the time constructively to have plan B-C-D and even E in place should the academies not offer you an appointment...</p>

<p>...the reality is that while they may, they may not. Nothing is assured until that LOA comes in the mail, and even then an injury between now and I-day can upset the whole apple cart....</p>

<p>Wishing you nothing but the best as you persue your dream!</p>

<p>ragmanlaw-
you are ignorant to think you can rate the academies (BTW, its CGA then USAFA). each one offers a unique experience. obviously, if you want to fly, it make sense to go to airforce, and navy for navy and so on. i just want to let you know that if you get a nomination, that means that someone else will not. Why end somewhere just because you got in. UNLESS you want to have a career in the some maritime related business (and armed services) you will hate it here. Also to let you know, USMMA is the toughest of all the academies. We dont have ridiculous degrees like the other service academies (like humanities, english, history, foreign affairs) we just have engineering and nautical science (including deck majors) Additionally, we have 3 trimesters of school (34 weeks) and you will take the most credit hours here. For example, I will have 21 or 22 credit hours with my systems engineering degree. I would think real hard about what school you want to go to. if i happen to be your DI next summer and you tell me that you came here because you didnt get into AFA, i will run your ass out of here. we dont need any kids that dont want to be here. before i forget, no congressman will waste their time and nominate you for all the service academies. pick one</p>

<p>i forgot to say, hello jamzmom! looking foward to introducing you to my parents at acceptance day (just curious, what hotel are you guys staying at)</p>

<p>4th CO WOO WOO</p>

<p>Seems to me that your prime focus - instead of wanting to attend an Academy - should be serving your country. It might be an Academy but it could also be ROTC or even OCS later. I'd suggest doing some thinking about this before you start interviewing with the various Congressional nominations committees. If I was on the committee and read your post, I'm not sure I'd be so interested in recommending you. And don't be so smug about USMMA - very unpleasant on this board.</p>

<p>USMMA2009: down boy! </p>

<p>lots of novices here just trying to find their way...
as for how hard things are, lets face it- none of the academies are a breeze- they are all hard- (well, putting aside the CCC)... (sorry- sick humor!)... </p>

<p>i think you would be hard pressed to defend the "ridiculous degrees"...the country needs historians to remind us all of the errors of our ways, english majors that can write so that others can learn, foreign affair specialists who can negotiate us out of some of the messes we get ourselves into....there are only so many bridges to be built and roads to pave and ships to navigate and fix...lots of room for those "non-engineering" people...
even Kings Point is on board....just as your "core" includes english, comparative literature, history courses and those in the humanity area of leadership and ethics, so does USNA and USMA include in their "non-engineering" cores (those "riduculous majors") the same calculus, chemistry, physics and engineering courses that are offered at USMMA! Lets not put down your "big brothers" just 'cause they offer a little more diversity!
For the record, as to credit hours, you all end up pretty much in the same place....142+ at last count....while USMMA condenses it into trimesters to allow for a sea year (a wonderful thing), the USMA and USNA add that training...months, and in some cases, years worth....AFTER the 4 years of courses are completed....one could even argue the fact that course material is covered more in-depth in a semester system as there are more weeks to expand on a topic as opposed to an abbreviated trimester system...(went to colleges that offered both, and the extent of the content WAS different!)..and lets not forget that you guys are also studying for your licenses...but then USNA sits for the engineering boards...so we could go on forever....and doesn't SUNY-Maritime also offer nautical science, deck license and even "sea summers" (even with a quasi-"regiment" ?)</p>

<p>so while you will perhaps graduate a bit "saltier," trust that your USNA counterparts will catch up to you in short order....not my words, but from people in the industry (right here in the big apple I might add) that hire lots of King Pointers AND USNA grads!!! And how lucky are we, the people, to have so many of you choosing a military track in the first place, regardless of which academy you ultimiately choose? a reminder that you will all be on the "same fields of strife" as commrades...and back home safe we hope...</p>

<p>so please cut ragmanlaw a little slack- let the kid get in before you go running him off- give him credit for being here to educate himself..."every journey starts with but a single step," and no doubt you too had some guidance along the way! Lets play nice!</p>

<p>(ps...my apologies if either of you are of the female persuasion...just subsitute "he said" for "she said)... :)</p>

<p>ragmanlaw,</p>

<p>I respect your desire to go to a service academy. Just keep in mind you are asking congress, and the United States to grant their nomination for you to serve the interests of the U.S. It's normal to be torn between particulars of each academy, like AFA has a glider team while USNA has a cool rock gym or something stupid. Remember what you are going to the academy for. It's the free education, a unique chance to lead and learn, AND SERVE. BE DEDICATED TO WHATEVER PATH YOU CHOOSE. Like USMMA09 said, it's all about how happy you are to be where you are. </p>

<p>My advice is to look into the USNA and USMMA a lot more, with emphasis on USMMA. IF you get into USMMA you can go into any service upon graduation. The trade-off is that you may learn to love the sea and you won’t have all the non-specialty majors all the other academies have like humanities. You may not want to go into the military after the first month at any academy and find out what kind of performance they demand EVERY DAY, even Sundays. The Federal Service Academies are tough, so don't worry about the nomination process so much. If you are as smart as you say you are, then you will get your first choice no doubt, right? Someone pointed out there is no sure thing in this so beware of sounding self-righteous in your threads. </p>

<p>LOOK INTO each of the academies more before you make you choices about which nomination you want. Time is running out for your application, so maybe try and get 1 hour per day into researching each of the academies. Don't say simply, I want to be an officer in the military, USMMA09 pointed out that shows weakness of mind and character. When you are sitting down with your congressperson they will look at you and maybe even nominate you with a crappy, I want an academy. To impress them and leave the interview with a sense of accomplishment go into the interview and talk more about the academics and leadership you will gain at the school, and then offer to whatever force the academy represents. Last piece of advice about your quest through the process of admissions to an academy; tone down the cockiness. The last thing any academy needs is another dude coming here thinking he is the hottest ***** and then finding out the reality of things. There are not many hot girls here, and the ones who are will be in a higher class than you. You don’t understand until you get here what I mean. </p>

<p>My story is I didn’t get into the USNA so I enlisted in the Marines and now go to the USMMA. I received an appointment out of high school to the USMMA and don’t regret coming here after enlisting. So long as I earn excellent grades, I can do anything once I leave here. Upon graduation I will have options. Any questions about USMMA go to the USMMA forum and chat with USMMA2009 and me, we will be happy to assist you in learning more.</p>

<p>NAVY2010,</p>

<p>You have the right idea about the academies. Find out what suits each of you best. And as far as the whole Lets not put down your "big brothers" thing. It's not like that, no one feels that the other schools are better or worse. We just see differences in comfort and style of living. USMMA and CGA, especially the CGA has it bad. USMMA gets very little money compared to the other service academies, but they still have amazing facilities because of the Alumni. BIG thanks to the alumni.</p>

<p>haha i was just kidding about the "Ridiculous majors" thing...to be honest, it was a representative from the USAFA at my congressmans academy appointee's breakfast who made the comment that USMMA has the toughest academics and that is the only academy with no "bulls*it" majors. Just as leadinUSMC said, USMMA is one of the most under rated and over looked schools. i actually never heard of it until my college counselor told me about it. USMMA before will give you the most options after graduation, either from sailing on your license as third assistant engineer or third mate, commission in any branch of the armed services, or work for govt organizations like NOAA. Top that USNA!!</p>

<p>Wow.</p>

<p>Hey everyone, I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. The truth is I desire to serve my country, and would like to do that through one of the Federal Service Academies, particularly the USNA. I'm sorry if I sound cocky by trying to rank academies...as they are ranked as the order I particularly am partial to them.</p>

<p>A month ago, I was absolutely sure USNA was my one and only choice. I visited the academy, researched every last detail, went to NASS, the whole nine yards. However, I started receiving a lot of literature from the USMA and USAFA (The USMMA hasn't sent me anything, even after two requests over a period of six months). Honestly I really don't want to fly, or design aircraft, so I suppose the USAFA is not the best choice. My career choice at this point is truly Submariner. I really don't have much of an idea what I would be doing in the USMA, so I guess most of you are right in assuming that I'm being a little to hasty about wanting "any academy."</p>

<p>USMMA guys, my bad. Really, you guys are largely unappreciated, and I'm sorry for that. I have been seriously considering the USMMA for the diversity of service choices after graduation. I guess I sort of developed a bias against the USMMA after visiting an information session at Opa Locka, Coast Guard Base, where all five academies were present. The other academies sort of disregarded the USMMA, no one really seemed largely interested in the school (most didn't know it existed previous to the IS)...so it just sort of stuck in my mind that way. </p>

<p>The USAFA on the other hand recieved a lot of badmouthing from everyone from my dad to other Canidates at NASS. They believe the USAFA is down the rungs of the latter or something of the sort.</p>

<p>And as far as service, no matter what I am going to serve in the armed forces (hopefully NAVY) whether its through ROTC or even enlistment. First, I can't pay for college.(my dad has already made it clear he will contribute in no way.) I can't get financial aid(my dad makes too much money). I can't get loans(my dad's credit is horrid, thus he can't cosign). ROTC, Reserve, enlistement, or the Federal Service Academies are really my only options if I go out of state.</p>

<p>Thanks for all your insight. I have really rethought this whole ordering thing as I really want to go to the USNA... Well heres a better question: Do you suppose its better to list only a single academy? </p>

<p>Eh, its all good. Sorry for sounding "cocky," "ignorant," and what ever else. Really thanks for the help. You guys have actually had a defined effect on the way I will approach this, as well as phrase this same question to my BGO (if I don't neglect to ask altogher.)</p>

<p>Also as far as service after graduation, when I was attending the NASS, I was informed that you could actually go into any branch of service, although this is not normalacy. (One graduate of 2005 went Coast Guard, and some others went Army Rangers, and Air Force.)</p>

<p>And LeadinUSMC:
I have heard about the funding issues...CGA and USMMA would probably be just as prestigious with some more money and what not and maybe getting NCAA Div I, a lot of people shun any thing less. Just look at the princeton review's notes on CGA and USMMA (or college board, don't remember). There information doesn't seem to glorify the the schools the way the other three are. In both cases they had quotes of students complaining about dorms, food, and overall life. Either the kids they interviewed are wimps, nonexistant or the situation is not optimum at those schools.</p>

<p>Arrgh...I will leave you in peace now. Thanks.</p>

<p>LeadinUSMC and USMMA2009: </p>

<p>thanks for your comments- you have renewed my faith in mankind! Have nothing but the greatest respect for USMMA (our son was also offered an appt for USMMA 2009 and USMA 2009, but is going prep/USNA 2010)...but persuing an engineering major (naval archectiture)...</p>

<p>....and you are right-USMMA is one of the most "underrated treasures" ... not to mention it's in NYC's backyard!!! And yes, you do have more "options" in the end...all the more reason to figure out "what you want to be when you grow up"...if unsure, USMMA is expecially the right place to be! </p>

<p>Lets see..."top that"....hummm, a challenge!!......well, you have to agree the "big brothers" have a little more room to play in...and USNA is sooooo pretty!!! And it has the biggest dorm in the world...and while it doesn't have NYC, it has Annapolis, and at least you can walk there! Oh...and lets not forget an AWESOME lacrosse team!!!!! :)</p>

<p>as for that USAFA rep...you just can't trust anything those guys say....i think the altitude gets to them.....lets just all agree that USMMA, USNA and USMA are ALL harder than the CCC...(not Coast Guard...we all know those puddle jumpers have it rough with all that climbing on the Eagle...and they do save us boaters on LI sound when we get in trouble, so don't want to offend any coasties here!!!)...but who knows what the doolies are doing out there at the Colorado Country Club in all that altitude......(only kidding, I suppose we need them too!!) </p>

<p>God bless each and every one of you!!! :)</p>

<p>ragmanlaw: don't beat yourself up....everyone learns here, and no one is free of mistakes...better here then with your BGO or in some interview! Take what you will from these sites, but remember, we too are "trying to figure it out"...otherwise we would be watching TV and having a life other than worrying about our kids!</p>

<p>take a deep breath...
try and approach is backwards....you want subs...so that means Navy...so lots of ways to get there...USNA, USMMA, (even the USMA commissions at least one person in the Navy every once in a while!)...well, maybe USMA is a bit of a stretch to subs...
but you can add in NRTOC...and there is scholarship money available....and as for funding, where there is a will there is a way....so don't discount anything at this point...
apply to your top choices...if they include more than one academy, then list them (in your order of preference) on the nomination applications....DO DO DO apply to some civilian schools as well....if you want subs, don't overlook some of the state schools that offer maritime programs....Maine Maritime, Massachuttes Maritime, State University of New York Maritime (by the way, they are right across the way from Kings Point...so close that they can wave to each other!!)...apply and see where you get in....in the meantime, read as much as you can (read "Absolutely American" by Lipsky if you are considering ANY academy...a must!!!)...visit them if you can....if you can arrange a stay, even better.....see things for yourself when you can....and don't overlook the financial counselors at civilian schools that can advise you on funding....remember that academy educations... "while priceless, are not free..." (I'm borrowing that from one of the moms...I just love it!)...</p>

<p>so move forward...and I must say, I really like the tone of your last post- you are a quick study...good for you!</p>

<p>best of luck- hope we see you here lots!!</p>

<p>ragmanlaw,</p>

<p>After you read Absolutely American, which should be required reading before applying to any SA, then watch the National Geographic series, Surviving West Point. It will give you a great idea of the kind of life you can expect at a SA, not just West Point.</p>

<p>You sound like you are committed to serving in the military. Just be careful that it is not just for the "free" education. Best of luck to you.</p>

<p>HA! HA! HA! Look ragmanlaw what you started with a brief comment on your belief USMMA was somehow easier to get in! We came in here and took over the thread! LOL Gosh you Plebes! I got my giggle for the day! Whew! Hey Navy2010 these kids are hard-core about their academy aren't they! LOL Thats my boys! USMMA09, my "other" son, I can't wait to see you! I get all mommy like when I see you guys on here and wonder why you're not doing your homework! ;) Just kidding..... <em>Big squeezes both of you</em> till I get up there and give 'em for real! You 4th co guys WOO WOO! Go kidnap mine from 3rd co & get him in there with you normal guys will ya?</p>

<p>Hang in there ragmanlaw, these guys were in your shoes just a short while ago trying to learn the ins & outs of how to get into an academy. Anything you want to know about their academy, you'll get great first hand details!</p>

<p>hey jamzmom---shouldn't you be packing for your big trip north? ...have a safe one!</p>