non drinker seeks school...

Parents Forum
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<p>Curmudgeon - she is struggling with getting clear info on this, as are others if you look at the Dartmouth board, so take what I'm going to say with a grain of salt - Sybbie jump in at any time. What I said is related more to the situation at Dartmouth, particularly.</p>

<p>A lot of the angst is specific to Dartmouth - remember with the D-plan, during soph and junior years everyone moves on and off campus, so you might have 3 or 4 different living situations during those 2 years, rather than the 2 living situations taht would be normal at most colleges - you need to meet as many people as possible. If one of the freshman dorms becomes sub-free, that would be ideal, some floors are listed as sub-free on the website, but you can't request a particular dorm, just subfree.
As Idad pointed out, there are some opportunities for mentoring, etc, in mixed class living, but I think it is also possible that the upperclassmen have made their circle of friends, know they want the quiet dorm, and want it to stay quiet (not perhaps a good situation for making new friends), also they may only be around for 1 term. I think the mixed class system works well at Swarthmore because almost all the housing has frosh mixed in - the sophs are the ones who are a little more segregated, because of lottery numbers. At Dartmouth half the frosh live together, the other half are in mixed housing.
There is a 3rd option that Sybbie's daughter lived in, I don't think it is officially substance free, but it is de facto low substance, which is probably what we really want for our kids. But, jump in here Sybbie, neither her daughter nor the roommate elected to live there next year.</p>

<p>If DD was going to a school where she could actually request specific dorms, I think she would go for a sub free freshman dorm. Since she is the fatalistic type, I think she is leaning toward taking her chances in the general pool. I'm staying out of this decision as much as possible. I hope she is going to go to the 09 website and the LiveJournal to get ideas about what others are doing - again since Dart is basically on quarters, she hasn't even gotten her housing forms yet.</p>

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<p>Daughter loved her experience where she lives and has many non drinking friends. She had to apply to the housing in which she currently lives. Even though her dorm wasn't "sub free" it did tend to lean that way because the majority of the residents mixed class housing are non drinkers. </p>

<p>The main reason D and her room mate are not returning is that they applied to be Undergraduate Advisors next year (same as an RA). Her first choice was to be a freshmen UGA at East Wheelock where she currently lives, but your can't pick where you live. She will be a UGA to her fellow 08 class. Had she not been selected as a UGA, she would have stayed.</p>

<p>Her roommmate also applied and was accepted to be a freshman UGA based in one of the all freshmen dorms. Just last week, she changed her mind and decided not to do it. Since she has a low number in the housing draw when their class goes, she will have a lot of choices of where she wants to live and wants to live on Mass Row because of its central location to everything on campus, but she will chose a single.</p>

<p>There are quite a few people from her dorm who are staying next year and there are a few of her friends that lived in all freshmen housing who applied to live in EW this year and will be doing so. </p>

<p>While you keep the same roommate the entire freshman year The D-plan can make things a bit sketchy for upper classmen. Example: One of D's friends (Sally) asked if D wanted to room with her in EW this coming year. D was not going to be able to do it because she accepted a position as a UGA. D will have a single room.</p>

<p>Sally asked one of their other friends (Jane who was also accepted into EW) to room with her . Jane said yes. Sally and Jane will room Fall term. Winter term, Sally will not be on campus because she is studying abroad. Jane will be on campus. The way that D explained it to me is that Jane has 2 options, she could either find another roommate or a roommate will be assigned to her (remember there will be students returning from fall study abroad who need a room).</p>

<p>For returning students, they are given a list of available rooms and are asked to choose one. For this scenario, Suzy has returned from study abroad and has decided to take a room in EW. Even though she and Jane do not know each other, they can be roommates. For all Jane knows, Suzy could be a hard drinker. When Sally returns to campus in the spring, she will have to find a new room as she des not get the original room she had with Jane back.</p>

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<p>We are having these same discussions at my house though my D is leaning to the dorm that has the nicest rooms and is not sub free. My understanding is some sub free dorms do not have 100% sub free KIDS, but these kids want a peaceful dwelling place that will not be a late-night riot every weekend so they get their subs outside the dorm and retreat there when they are ready for study/bed. I think my D would be better off in subfree, but it is her decision.</p>

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<p>McDeb makes a good point. This may well be as much a parental control issue as anything else.</p>

<p>First, if your student is dead set against drinking, he/she will be able to find friends who either share with that or respect that decision. Colleges offer so many activities where drinking is not an issue that this should not be a problem. I would say a greater concern would be a college where the Greek system dominates the culture(and no, I an not anti-Greek). </p>

<p>Second, if your students decides to experiment responsibly college is a relatively safe environment-no driving is usually involved. My son had one episode first semester which he fessed up to and it taught him a lesson about responsible drinking. </p>

<p>Just trust the judgement of your student. They are now adults after all.</p>

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<p><<just trust="" the="" judgement="" of="" your="" student.="" they="" are="" now="" adults="" after="" all.="">></just></p>

<p>That's the thing. I mean, adults can't sequester themselves away from other adults who do not share their value system, well I guess some do in compounds in places like Montana or Waco. So how is sequestering a college student going to prepare them for the real world? I think that the college experience should about more than getting enough sleep, studying and interacting only with people who are like you.</p>

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<p>Once you're not in college any more you can choose who you hang out with, who you invite to your home, where you spend your free time--for non-drinkers, alcohol may play almost no role in your everyday "real life". But in a college dorm that's not substance free, you may be forced to live with alcohol and its after effects on a daily or nightly basis. So it makes sense that kids try to choose an environment where they can feel comfortable--just as they would in "the real world".</p>

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<p>True, but, does being with people who are not like you have to include have vomit all over the bathroom every Sat and Sun morning, or worse yet, all over your floor? As with other aspects of American life, the problem is extremes and polarization - for many students it is not a once in a semester drunken binge, it is an every Sat night occurrence. That roommate goes from a learning experience to an annoyance.</p>

<p>That said, I also brought up the issue of balance with my daughter - this environment will only be a year, it can be a learning experience, soon over (although it may be miserable while you are there) - there are no guarantees, that is why it is her decision.</p>

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<p>For increasing numbers of college kids, it has nothing to do with not drinking and everything to do with not wanting to be around the disgusting mess that heavy drinkers on campus make.</p>

<p>For example, in its own survey, one Ivy League college found that, within the prior year on its campus:</p>

<p>-- 62% had played drinking games.</p>

<p>-- 51% had vomited because of alcohol use in a private setting (such as a bathroom).</p>

<p>-- 19% had vomited because of alcohol in a public setting.</p>

<p>-- 11% had deliberately vomited so they could drink more.</p>

<p>-- 20% had urinated in a public setting while under the influence of alcohol.</p>

<p>-- 27% had a blackout while drinking</p>

<p>There are plenty of kids who expect to drink some in college, more or less like normal adults, but who don't want to be around the disruptive mess of the Animal House-type drunks. I mean, there are top colleges that have so much puking going on in the dorms that they actually have instituted a $25 "clean-up" fee levied on a "per puke" basis. So lets not make the non-drinkers and moderate drinkers out to be the weirdos here!</p>

<p>To me, looking at the drinking culture of a college beforehand is not only sensible, but should almost be considered a standard question to investigate. Oh, and by the way, it's also one reason that so many colleges are suddenly interested in the problem. They know it is becoming an issue with their customers.</p>

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<p>Interestdad, I believe that colleges don't care about the customers.... their sudden interest in the subject comes directly from their Risk management folks and the GC's office who have been told by their insurers, the bond rating companies, the banks who extend lines of credit, etc. that the liability involved scares the $%^& out of the financial community. Which is also why colleges don't really worry about the percentage of underage kids who drink.... but they care about the number of kids who end up in an ER with life-threatening alchohol poisoning, since every dead Freshman is a million dollar payout.</p>

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<p>At one of the schools we toured, during the info session the presenter stated that the school "will ask as much of you residentially as academically." Finding a good balance is part of the art of the application process. Some students select schools purely for the academics or largely for the social environment. Other families- ours included- consider both aspects and seek to find the best fit for their student. Given similar academics at a given group of schools, which offers the best residential fit? The ideal fit is different for each student. Not everyone is a sink or swim kinda person. It seems that the OP is already down the road on academic fit and is now screening schools for other things. </p>

<p>There seems to be much more awareness on the importance of fit than there was in the 1970's. This can only benefit the kids. To this day my parents cannot understand why our family's legacy school- from which I graduated in 1980- was a poor fit for me. I had no clue at the time, just knew that something was wrong. Am I going overboard in trying to parse the difference in social environments between schools? Maybe, but so be it. If another parent thinks that this is silly, so be it. I happen to think it's important.</p>

<p>Just to make sure that Legacy U was given its fair shake, my son and I visited and spent 2 nights. Within a short time of arriving on campus, my son ran into an aquaintance who happened to be the only freshman on campus from my son's high school. He immediately invited my son to hang out that night, which was very kind considering they had some mutual friends in high school but barely knew each other. My son ended up hanging out with him and his dorm mates for two nights, which really helped to round out the other aspects of our visit: tour, info session, interview, open house, town, etc. </p>

<p>With little real-world understanding of issues relating to campus culture, and no clue as to the depth of my behind-the-scenes research, my son observed this campus on his own terms and came to his own conclusions. Many of his observations meshed with mine. He decided to apply but the school was not at the top of his list, partially for academic reasons but more for residential/social reasons. Would he have been happy there? We'll never know because he is happily heading to a school that we both believe to be a much better fit.</p>

<p>Just want to add that student blogs and talks with transfer students can help round out one's sense of a school.</p>

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<p>I think parents are exaggerating this drinking thing to the point of ridiculousness. It wasn't even that bad back in the 70's. Sheltering a college age student is not teaching them anything. Bottom line is that if you send your child off to college thinking that he/she can control her environment, don't be surprised if he/she ends up back on your doorstep in October. Because the more you control things for him/her, the less tolerance he/she will develop.</p>

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<p>ID has neglected to tell you that the Data that he is citing is 7 years old. <a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Eevalres/rbs97alc.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/~evalres/rbs97alc.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>But Dartmouth and Williams are always the club that he uses to beat this issue with so why would I not be suprised?</p>

<p>Dartmouth 2003 First year survey</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Eevalres/CIRP2003.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/~evalres/CIRP2003.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Dinking, Partying and Smoking in High School</p>

<p>Nationally, drinking is at its lowest rate since the survey began. In 2003, 44.8% of national ncoming first-years report drinking beer frequently or occasionally during their senior year of high
school, a figure down from 46.5% in 2002 and its high of 73.7% in 1982. </p>

<p>National consumption of wine and other liquor has also reached a record low, with 50.7% of entering first-years reporting
frequent or occasional consumption in their last year of high school, a slight drop from 52.5% last year and the high of 67.8% in 1987, when the question was first asked.</p>

<p>At Dartmouth, beer consumption in the last year of high school among incoming firstyears is at a record low 57.0%, down slightly from 59.2% in 2002 and from a high of 84.8% in 1981.</p>

<p>At Dartmouth, 63.3% of entering students drank wine or other liquor frequently or occasionally in their last year of high school, down from a high of 76.5% in 1987. </p>

<p>This year’s figure is not, however, a statistically significant change from 2002 (65.1%). The percentage of students who spent six or more hours per week partying during senior year in high school also decreased, with a national low of 24.1%. </p>

<p>This is down from a high of 36.8% in 1987 when the question first appeared on the survey. At Dartmouth, the figure was 18.0% of first-years, down significantly from the high of 30.3% in 1987, continuing a downward trend that started in the mid-nineties.</p>

<p>Nationally, an all-time low of 6.3% reported smoking frequently during their last year in high school, down from a high of 12.7% of incoming first-years in 1998. Though national trends in cigarette smoking have fluctuated, in the past five years there has been a decline. At
Dartmouth, a record low of only 1.9% of incoming first-years reported smoking frequently during their senior year of high school, down from a high in 1971 (7.1%) and part of a recent drop from
5.3% in 1999.</p>

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<p>The U.S. Department of Education's Higher Education Center for Alcohol and other Drug abuse and Violence Prevention offers a wealth of information.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.edc.org/hec/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.edc.org/hec/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The Higher Education Center's purpose is to help college and community leaders develop, implement, and evaluate programs and policies to reduce student problems related to alcohol and other drug use and interpersonal violence. The Center favors a comprehensive approach to prevention. Central to this approach is a mix of environmental management strategies to address the institutional, community, and public policy factors that contribute to these problems. The Center supports the development of a prevention infrastructure, primarily by facilitating the work of statewide prevention initiatives and campus-community coalitions. The Center provides trainings, technical assistance, and publications to support these efforts. The Center also promotes innovative program development to improve student education, campus-based media campaigns (including social norms campaigns), early intervention, treatment, and recovery strategies, and enforcement.</p>

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<p>JOURNAL OF AMERICAN COLLEGE HEALTH, VOL. 52, NO. 4</p>

<p>Article: Colleges Respond to Student Binge Drinking: Reducing Student Demand or Limiting Access</p>

<p><a href="http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/cas/Documents/respond/respondingg-1.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/cas/Documents/respond/respondingg-1.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>McDeb-- the General Counsel's of most uni's and colleges would disagree with your statement that the drinking is exxagerated. The liability of colleges when there is a fatality is a huge topic among insurers right now, and they are not making up the numbers.... the paramedics and ER doc's are the ones sounding the alarm about potentially fatal drinking, not the parents (most of whom are clueless.)</p>

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<p>mcdeb1958: Interesting that you chose the word "tolerance". </p>

<p>And, in my experience it was that bad in the 1970's. My state had a legal drinking age of 18. Partying began in 8th grade, keg parties in 9th.</p>

<p>I don't think we're talking about parents controlling the environment once the student arrives on campus. That has more to do with the type of choices that the student makes on a day-to-day basis. </p>

<p>Some campuses have a dominant culture, or flavor. Same with office environments. What's wrong with giving that some thought before you matriculate?</p>

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<p>Great data, Sybbie - I'll let you stick up for D, because honestly I don't know, but it can't be any worse than Alabama or Auburn, just can't be.</p>

<p>The interesting thing I saw in that data was that about 53% of the women said they expected to work part time during college, while only 39% of the men did - maybe they are all out getting drunk ;)?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
ID has neglected to tell you that the Data that he is citing is 7 years old.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, wait a minute. I'm the one that pointed you to that survey link in the first place! </p>

<p>I specifically opted not to link to the report in this thread because the identity of the specific college wasn't really the issue. In this case, I was using those numbers to represent a general problem and the identity of the school really didn't add anything to the discussion. </p>

<p>BTW, Wechsler has been pointing out the increasing polarization on campus: a simulatanous increase of non-drinkers and frequent heavy drinkers. It is precisely this increasing polarization that is bringing the issue to the forefront.</p>

<p>To put it bluntly, at the same time you have increasing numbers of students who don't want to step over vomit in their dorms, you have increasing numbers of pukers. A classic recipe for conflict.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Uh, wait a minute. I'm the one that pointed you to that survey link in the first place!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please do not think or assume that your posting this information is the first time that it has been seen by me. The one thing about data is that if you look hard enough you can always find some to support your point of view. </p>

<p>7 year old data from the spring of 1997,in which four hundred forty-six students (45%) responded to supports the point you are trying to make. </p>

<p>Data reported by almost 75% of students (over 750 students) in comparison to students at 413 colleges nationally does not, then there is nothing else that I can say as you have shown on many threads that you are entrenched in your beleifs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I specifically opted not to link to the report in this thread because the identity of the specific college wasn't really the issue.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But those who have posted here long enough know that you have very stron views when it comes to Williams, its athletes and drinking , along with Dartmouth, its greek system and drinking and as I stated earlier any opportunity where you can use these schools as a club to beat these topics, you do. </p>

<p>I apologize if I am wrong, but you have consistently shown tht the best predictor of future behavior is relevant past behavior and I would be safe in saying if a drinking thread comes up a month or a year from now, you will use it as an opportunity to take a swipe at these 2 schools. Maybe I should have seen it coming when I typed the words Dartmouth. However, I do take solace in knowing that there are some things that you are consistent in saying. However there are some threads where you come off in having an ax to grind especially where thesre schools are concerned. </p>

<p>In the end I must say that you have presented some good and interesting data. While I appreciate debate and various points of view, if one is to present research, then they should try to present a balanced way presenting the facts or the messenger becomes the cause for the message being lost.</p>

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<p>Cangel:</p>

<p>U of Alabama at Tuscaloosa binge drinking rate: 50.2 % using Wechsler's 5/4 measure (five drinks for men, four for women). The national average is 44%.</p>

<p>Frequent binge rate: 28.7% (same measure, binge drinking three or more times in prior two weeks). The national average increased to 23% in 1999. I'm guessing that 'Bama's campus is very polarized with a particularly bad drinking culture at one extreme and fairly sizeable population of abstainers at the other.</p>

<p>I wouldn't say that 'Bama is a more of a drinking school than the elite colleges with heavier drinking cultures. Dartmouth's "binge rate" was 48% using the higher 5/5 threshold. Williams was somewhere between 50%-53%, again using the 5/5 measure. In an imprecise science, I'd say those three schools are all pretty comparable -- as are many, many more! </p>

<p>Plenty of students figure out a way to cut a wide swath around the hard-core drunks at all of these schools. They just make a conscious effort to seek out activities and groups that aren't so heavily focused on the drinking scene.</p>

<p>Imagine what Penn State must be like with a 76% binge rate? I'm amazed they even have classes!</p>