<p>
[quote]
Care to cite that statistic?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sure. Be glad to. See page 10 of this Harvard School of Public Health report:</p>
<p>Wow, this thread is a textbook example of what's wrong with CC these days. To the point where I'm making myself a liar to come back and say so.</p>
<p>Mama:</p>
<p>My D felt the same way. The first school she went to was a classic party drinking school. She was absolutely miserable. Transfered to Wesleyan, which anyone will tell you has its share of drinking and drugs. The difference? Tolerance is their Holy Grail, and if you don 't want to join in, it's fine with everyone. She wasn't isolated, or left out, and the tenor of drinking was different--more like beers around the kitchen table, rather than frat-party spiked Koolaid in garbage cans.</p>
<p>There's definitely a difference. Ironically, left-wing LACs can turn out to be the warmest places for nondrinkers. Good luck in your search.</p>
<p>whoa, mama! There's lots of campuses where more than a handful of students don't drink. Try any large state university - with that many kids the proportional numbers would automatically qualify for your criteria. Sure, there would be plenty of kids who do live for the drinking opportunities but with over 30,000 kids, for example, even at 5% who don't drink, that's still 6,000 students!</p>
<p>Kids drink. Period. On every single campus in this country (even the BYU's and the Samfords). The bigger issue is whether the campus culture (see all those culture threads out there right now - they are spot on) allows for the individual's desires to be respected. And those are the schools I guess you're looking for. I don't personally know of any ( you could probably rule out my daughter's school - DePauw - LOL!), maybe other posters could. But I still would think a larger school would qualify for your criteria where if you don't want to go with a "prevailing" culture, there would still be PLENTY of people (by the sheer numbers) to gravitate to.</p>
<p>mcdeb: I think you are dead on, by the way. How many of us know those kids who did not drink in high school, went away to school and went nuts with the freedom - despite the straight laced ways in high school, the parental warnings and promises? There's a ton of them out there. A parents and/or kid's best intentions don't always jibe with the reality of day to day life in college. Teenagers (with those undeveloped, still prone to risk taking brains) like to experiment and there's a reason there's a whole lot of studies about peer pressure: it's a real phenomenon. Not saying that a kid can't go their own way but these years are about trying out new things - and alcohol just might be one of those things. We cannot control that.</p>
<p>Do not get me wrong: I do not condone underage drinking. I do not allow my daughter to drink in our home, or out to dinner and I do not allow other kids to drink in our home. But I'm not an idiot and I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend she doesn't try alcohol at school. I just keep repeating my message of don't do anything so stupid you would risk your life - stay alert and sober enough to make sound decisions. Protect yourself at all costs. Sorry - I'll get off my soapbox now!</p>
<p><<once again="" mcdeb,="" just="" because="" d="" doesn't="" drink,="" mean="" she="" "wholly="" rejects"="" those="" who="" do.="" why="" do="" you="" think="" that?="">></once></p>
<p>Because of your prior post:</p>
<p><<i hope="" you="" can="" understand="" that="" she="" is="" seeking="" a="" culture="" where="" alcohol="" doesn't="" rule="" and="" have="" to="" seek="" out="" "one"="" friend="" who="" drink="" also.="">></i></p><i hope="" you="" can="" understand="" that="" she="" is="" seeking="" a="" culture="" where="" alcohol="" doesn't="" rule="" and="" have="" to="" seek="" out="" "one"="" friend="" who="" drink="" also.="">
</i>
<p>interesteddad - thanks for the link. I'd seen many references to that/those studies, but never seen the actual. I found some useful thoughts there:</p>
<p>2 of 3 University/college presidents are concerned about binge drinking and looking for ways to address the issue. Points out what we are all saying - that it's an issue in many, many places.
(My own contention/hypothesis is that one needn't rule out all 2/3 to find a place where the non-drinker/moderate drinker can thrive.)</p>
<p>The helpful thought which I also picked up from the article is the converse of who is LIKELY to drink (ie, frat/sorority members and athletes, according to the study). Those less likely to drink are African-American, Asian, older (I believe it was over 24) and married (if I recall that one correctly).I believe mini and others have pointed out all these factors. But the most interesting to me was that those "serious" about their studies are also less likely to be part of this drinking culture.</p>
<p>This last is a hopeful/helpful sign to me, since we are looking for "markers" we can use as we visit and our kids overnight at schools. It seems to me that when one comes across a good nexus of kids who are serious about their studies, one can believe s/he will find a place where s/he needn't feel isolated or left out, to use garland's words.</p>
<p>I think this is what mama is looking for for her D - not to have to look for that needle-in-a-haystack "one" friend to hang on to. I also think this is what mcdeb is saying her kid has found at Lehigh (it was also my impression of Lehigh). Now, another parent reports kids unhappy at Lehigh due to too much of a drinking culture. So, it may be that some kids find their non-drinking cohort more easily, due to their major, whether they've chosen an Honors/sub-free dorm if available, by not joining frat/sorority, by the activities or clubs they join, or perhaps just luck.</p>
<p>Sorry Mcdeb, didn't get that implied D 'wholly rejected' anyone. Just meant she would like join with others in social activity that didn't invovle alcohol.
Thanks Garland and fredo, there is much to consider. BTW not out to exercise absolute control, nor do we do so now, just wanting to support D in finding the right school for her. Now, IMHO the horse is dead. If there are more school suggestions I'd love to know, if not shall we conclude?</p>
<p>Mama--I understand just what you mean. Unfortunately, today's drinking on campus is more often binge drinking than social drinking as we knew it 30+ years ago. I understand your daughter's concern, and it is not just a matter of being open to different values when you wake up and your roommate has been sick all over the room from the previous night's overindulgence.</p>
<p>My personal knowledge is limited, but I would say 1)avoid Colgate (according to friend of #1 son, drinking on weekends is the primary entertainment) 2) the tech schools are less prone to this and 3) from the visit #2 son & I made, Furman could be a possible for your D. It is a dry campus for everyone, including greeks and faculty. Students of age can drink off campus, though, and it's not a religious school in the mode of the LDS schools, Liberty or Bob Jones U. They make an incredible effort to have more to do every day than any person can do--it is very impressive. I should tell you that I made a mental note (??)of this policy as we heard it on our visit, but non-drinking S just shrugged and thought it was completely reasonable.</p>
<p>Thanks for the suggestion wyogal. Will certainly check that out. My hope is to add to the few schools D has come up with. At least she
can get started in researching what visits she'd like to plan for. Appreciate your help.</p>
<p>I also think this is what mcdeb is saying her kid has found at Lehigh (it was also my impression of Lehigh).</p>
<p>Except I didn't say that at all. In fact, I specifically said that my child has friends who drink and friends who don't drink and that all participate in many varied activities. I specifically said that she does not exclude people who drink simply because they drink. Nor did I say anything about her searching for a "non-drinking cohort." Did you read what I wrote? Geez. I think this drinker/non-drinker mentality is a figment of adults' imaginations. </p>
<p><<so, it="" may="" be="" that="" some="" kids="" find="" their="" non-drinking="" cohort="" more="" easily,="" due="" to="" major,="" whether="" they've="" chosen="" an="" honors="" sub-free="" dorm="" if="" available,="" by="" not="" joining="" frat="" sorority,="" the="" activities="" or="" clubs="" they="" join,="" perhaps="" just="" luck.="">></so,></p>
<p>Newsflash - not all non-drinkers hang out with other non-drinkers. These kids aren't in AA, they are just underage. You all are just silly.</p>
<p>mcdeb - I see now where you are coming from. Speaking only for myself, I have been using the shorthand of "drinking, drinkers" for binge drinking, binge drinkers and a culture where that is the ONLY or dominant social milieu. </p>
<p>I also can't speak for mama, but I didn't get the impression that her D is looking for friends who never take a drink, but again for friends who have other social outlets.</p>
<p>When I characterized Lehigh, that is what I meant. That kids can drink/not drink and be comfortable. When I call my son a non-drinker, that is because in hs, that is what he is. Altho, we are a family who allow a glass of wine at the table at home for our kid (what I call the French manner). At college, I already know that he has had a beer or two on his overnights. Again, I have been guilty of a shorthand which may have contributed to an apparent polarization of views which I don't think we really have here.</p>
<p>Mama:</p>
<p>Here are some pratical tips for researching the drinking culture at a school:</p>
<p>a) Read the Fiske Guide capsule reports. If they use code words like "work hard/play hard" or "active party scene", that means the school has a heavy drinking culture.</p>
<p>b) Check the frat/sorority percentages. These are available in the USNEWS premium on-line edition. I don't know, but my rough rule of thumb is that percentages above the 20% to 25% range are a pretty reliable indicator of a heavy drinking scene. </p>
<p>c) Search the school newspaper for things like "alcohol", "alcohol poisoning", or "+alcohol +hospital". If there is a heavy drinking problem at a campus, there will probably be articles. When you find articles about students being hospitalized for alcohol poisoning, jot down the dates. There will be a few per year at every campus. But, for a school with 2000 students, if you start to see more than a couple per year, that's a red flag.</p>
<p>d) Do a Google search for the school name and "binge drinking". That's a standard research term that isn't quite as ominous as it seems (occasional forays into "binge drinking" range wouldn't be unexpected on a college campus). However, if you are lucky, you may find a reference to the school's alcohol studies giving a "binge drinking rate". The national average is 44%. A low-drinking school would be 30%. A high drinking school would be 50% or higher. My rule of thumb is that anything below the national average is probably not going to be dominated by drinking. If you can't find anything, get your daughter to e-mail the Director of Admissions or the Dean of Students. Schools do know their binge drinking rates.</p>
<p>e) Look for the markers: schools with an above average academic engagement. Schools with above average racial and ethnic and socio-economic diversity. Look for schools described as being more "geeky" than "preppie".</p>
<p>Interesteddad, Great practical tips! We'll certainly be using them.
On behalf of my non drinking D, I thank you for the information and direction.</p>
<p>Mama,
Barnard College has floors in the dorms where all of the students pledge not to drink. Your daughter can have New York, Columbia University and a large wet of friends who don't drink.</p>
<p>I posted some suggestions for you in the other thread. There are substance free dorms (or at least floors) at nearly every college. That's one option, but the key, i think, is like interesteddad suggested: look for schools where drinking doesn't rule the social scene. Even schools that are officially dry like Pepperdine, Earlham and St. Olaf are better described as "pleasantly damp" but the key is that it is OK not to be a partier at these schools. Other suggestions are on my post on the other thread.</p>
<p>I know that some Canadian schools (such as Queen's) have special rez floors with different designations... including substance-free floors, international floors, engineering floors, all-female floors, etc... Try to see if the schools you are applying to have such a thing.</p>
<p>Ok, bear with me. Am I the only one who thinks it's a little weird that drinking would be the first criterion for college choice? Sorry but there are so many factors to consider when choosing a college. I never considered drinking as a factor much less as the first elimination. I can see maybe factoring it in at some point to narrow down a college list, but it is a weird starting place for me. Sort of like choosing friends based on whether they drink or not.</p>
<p>We had several different informal criterion for colleges
Location- size- Greek y/N,required courses/housing....
while D did chose a school that doesn't have Greeks/major sports and so seems to have less emphasis on drinking as social lubricant than perhaps a few other schools- we didn't try to find a school that was completely dry.</p>
<p>mcdeb,
we're back to priorities and fit. For many people, drinking is just a fact of life and it just doesn't bother them. For others it's really offensive. Sort of like loud music or smoking. I get really stressed in bars because they're loud, smoky and towards the end of the evening the drunks get unpredictable. OTOH, my husband doesn't even know what I'm talking about.</p>
<p>My daughter chose a Christian College partly because of the zero tolerance for drinking. And I mean zero. All students live on campus and no matter your age, you sign a pledge that you will not drink or behave in an immoral way. So, while there are students that will drink, if they are caught, they get kicked out. She loves that drinking is not a factor at all and she can just concentrate on academics and fun. If the academics weren't excellent, she wouldn't have chosen it but the combination of no drinking and good academics made it a good fit.</p>
<p>Mama, I realize that's not practical for your D but my suggestion is to look at more nerdy kind of colleges. (And I say that in the nicest way. I've got a couple of them in my family) A friend of my daughters goes to RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) and she has said more then once that the biggest parties are the LAN parties. RIT is interesting because it has a big engineering/computer science reputation but also has a really good photography and design side. good luck with your seach!</p>
<p>To the OP - all colleges have issues with substance abuse, I think we have established that, some of the lower drinking schools have more weed, for example.
My daughter started out wanting no Greeks, no drinking, etc, etc, but she ended up accepting one of the most notorious work hard/play hard schools.
We have been around and around this issue at home - she has done 2 short overnights, but both with non-drinking students in non-drinking dorms, it is a real issue because soon it will be time to choose housing, and picking sub-free really pushes the student into a different group, and away from the mainstream. She has come to terms with that, and feels she can adjust and find friends and activities to pursue. She also felt that visiting the frats and not drinking was very possible,too, might get old and boring, but was a viable way to meet people. Who knows? She's happy, but she doesn't know which housing she will choose yet.</p>
<p>Finally to the OP - as in most aspects of "campus culture", the smaller the school, the more important the issue. If you go to Ohio State, there are plenty of hard partiers around, and you might not be in the mainstream if your are a non-drinker, but you will definitely not be alone.</p>
<p>
Will you elaborate on this? It spooks me a little as D is definitely a substance free dorm kind of kid that will most likely choose a school that has a hard partying rep, based on her current list.</p>
<p>And whoa! Look at me. Seen-yah mem-bah, stepping out .WooHoo!! Watch my monitor explode.</p>