Noncustodial CSS and Financial Aid at Wes

Paying for College
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<p>I’d also suggest that you view any information about what happened with some “friend” of someone in the internet with a huge grain of salt. I have quite a few friends of friends whose kids have full academic scholarships at Harvard, too (even though there’s no such thing). </p>

<p>And the bottom line is that kids who go through the RD process and target their schools realistically, researching financial aid policies along the way, generally end up with many more choices and opportunities than kids who opt for ED. They learn more detail about the schools they are considering during the application process; they are often offered merit aid or invited to participate in wonderful programs that they didn’t know existed when they started; and they usually end up with several affordable choices in the spring.</p>

<p>Those who are accepted ED may be happy with their results, but they will never know what other opportunities their kid may have had with a little more confidence and patience.</p>

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<p>Likewise, those that decide not to apply ED will never know what the outcome might of been had they applied. This is how it works with any decision in life.</p>

<p>Students who are rejected or deferred ED, or who receive an ED FA office that is not sufficient, can then move on to their RD apps.</p>

<p>ED is not for everyone, or even most people, but it can be just the right thing for others.</p>

<p>And, calmom, while we disagree about ED applications, there is no reason to suggest I do not know what I’m talking about with regard to my son’s friends and their FA appeals. I am very close to both these families, we all went through the ED/FA process at the same time and were of significant help to each other in the course of it. I have no knowledge of your ‘friends of friends’ and Harvard, but I do certainly know the details of the cases I’ve referred with certainty. You can disagree as vehemently as you want to with my opinion, but you have no reason to suggest I am sharing inaccurate information and I have to admit I resent the insinuation. I am not trying to argue a point for its own sake and would not lie, exaggerate or misrepresent. I do not have a history of that on this board or anywhere else.</p>

<p>Let us disagree, but leave it at that.</p>

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<p>

That’s not true. </p>

<p>If my kids had applied ED to the schools they thought were their top choices in the fall, they would have each been accepted to only one college rather than 8+. My son would have been bound to attend the college he later turned down because of insufficient financial aid, and my daughter would have probably attended the same college, but without the opportunity to apply to other colleges and compare awards. Given the amount of debt both she and I have taken on, I’m glad that we had the opportunity to fully explore options. </p>

<p>The only time that the RD applicant would be left wondering would be if they failed to be accepted RD, and was nursing some kind of doubt over whether they would have somehow made the cut in the ED round. </p>

<p>And a third hand, anonymous report is NEVER a reliable way for anyone to make decisions. It is merely internet rumor. I pointed the OP to the requisite form on her son’s chosen college web site and to specific statements and policies on the site. She can verify that if she wants by going to the web site. Others who have direct experience dealing with that college’s financial aid department have also weighed in and indicated that their aid policies are inflexible and the college appears to be telling the truth when it says it is unwilling to negotiate aid packages. So why should the OP follow the "advice’ of someone based on what supposedly happened with some unnamed person’s kid under different circumstances applying to a different college? That simply is not a reliable source of information – it doesn’t apply to her setting, and there is no way for her to verify it or learn more details. It would be different if a person with direct experience offered to PM her with specifics, along the lines of what needs to be said to satisfy Wesleyan.</p>

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<p>I don’t think the OP should follow anyone’s advice on this board; not mine, not yours. The only thing the board is good for is to hear varied opinions. People need to make those decisions for themselves. Knowing in advance how things will work out for any given person at a given school at a given time isn’t really something any of us can know for certain.</p>

<p>Like I said, if it was me, I’d go for it. On the other hand that is certainly influenced by my own personality and my own experiences. My experiences have not been with Wesleyan, but neither myself or my friends had experience with our own kids’ ED schools either in advance of their applications. </p>

<p>I have PM’d with the OP and I think she has made the right decision for herself, as I have previously posted.</p>

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<p>

Yes, this is what I was referring to.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>It’s worth repeating that this is exactly why what 'rentof2 posted is true.</p>

<p>calmom has previously posted:

I think this colors everything she says about ED; objective issues should be given proper consideration, IMHO.</p>

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<p>The REASON I don’t like ED is because I consider it to be an unfair business practice by which well-funded colleges take unfair advantage of financially needy families.</p>

<p>The only thing this thread illustrates is one more financially needy family about to do something really stupid and being egged on by others who have bought into the ED “myth” - i.e., the false belief that college admissions is so competitive that their child has no chance of admission during the RD round, but with the magic of ED will suddenly have enhanced chances of admission – as well as the manifestly false claim of colleges that they “meet full need” when in fact those colleges use arbitrary and formulaic factors to decide how much they will demand each family pay, with little to no regard for individual family circumstances. </p>

<p>I don’t like ED for the same reason I don’t like other unfair and deceptive trade practices. </p>

<p>I don’t like to see people getting screwed over financially in the college admissions process. An ED offer of admissions puts tremendous pressure on a family when a financial aid offer is made that appears to be a significant amount of money but still requires the family to borrow more than they can reasonably afford, and with current college tuitions the colleges have a tremendous amount of leverage. There is a wide gray area between a number that the family will absolutely reject, and a dollar figure that they will stretch to the max to be able to meet – and colleges hire expensive enrollment management firms to advise them in great detail as to how to arrive at the specific numbers that will maximize their enrollment and minimize their financial aid expenditures. Why offer a $30K grant to a family if the student can be persuaded to come with only a $25K grant? ED is one more factor that shifts the balance and bargaining power in favor of the college. </p>

<p>I’m sorry to see families duped year after year by this process.</p>

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<p>I have more confidence in people to be able to make their own informed decisions.</p>

<p>I like the ED option and feel grateful to have had it… and, yeah, it’s an option at many schools and mandatory at none.</p>

<p>I am not so cynical about the goodwill of colleges, but maybe that’s because we are the recipients of that goodwill. My kid had stats in the middle of the range of accepted kids at his school. The acceptance rate there is very low. Did ED help him get admitted and have access to that great FA? I don’t know, but I’m sure glad we made the choice we did. It would cost us more for him to go to the local community college than it’s costing us at his college, and he’ll graduate without debt. Sorry, I don’t feel taken advantage of at all… or duped. ;)</p>

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<p>*Why offer a $30K grant to a family if the student can be persuaded to come with only a $25K grant? ED is one more factor that shifts the balance and bargaining power in favor of the college. *</p>

<p>Good point. and with ED, the family doesn’t know that another fine university might give them $35k or more!</p>

<p>In my opinion, ED works best when the family …</p>

<p>1) can afford full freight</p>

<p>2) Has lowish income, low assets, no NCP problems, and will obviously qualify for full aid (or near full aid) **at a full need school.
**
3) Has a strong idea of what their family contribution will be and can afford that amount PLUS more if needed. </p>

<p>It sounds like 'rentof2 falls into one of those categories since they would have paid more at a CC than they are at an ED school.</p>

<p>however, for those in FA limbo, ED can be very risky.</p>

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<p>One of the biggest drawbacks to applying ED is that you loose the opportunity to compare packages which can cost you money. </p>

<p>I can only talk to how it played out in our house…</p>

<p>During her admission cycle, my D was accepted to amherst, dartmouth, williams, barnard, tufts, bryn mawr and Mount Holyoke.</p>

<p>In the end, Dartmouth was her first choice but Williams gave a better FA package (we used the Williams offer as the basis of a financial review to get a better offer from Dartmouth). However, the Williams package was not the overall best package, we were just looking at 2 peer schools. </p>

<p>Williams gave more grant money, less loans ($0) and this was before they instituted their no loan policy (now gone again), a smaller student contribution, smaller work study obligation, and a smaller parent contribution than Dartmouth. </p>

<p>Dartmouth met Williams’ EFC, removed the loans, and met the grant aid. Though out her 4 years at Dartmouth, her financial aid remained pretty consistent to the point that she graduated with ~ 3k in loans (which she took out Jr. Year when she studied abroad in Europe).</p>

<p>Had my D applied ED to Dartmouth and received the exact package that she received RD, she would have graduated with ~ 20k in loans as she would have received loans in her FA package each of the 4 years.</p>

<p>There was a total of $12,256 between the Barnard package and the final offer we got from Dartmouth</p>

<p>Dartmouth EFC 2221 lower than barnard
student contribution 585 higher than barnard)
Dartmouth Grant money 7720 higher than barnard
loans 2600 less than barnard
work study 300 less than barnard
total 12256</p>

<p>The difference between Williams Financial aid package and the Amherst Financial aid package</p>

<p>parent contribution was 2251 higher at Amherst
student contribution 975 higher at Amherst
grant money 4906 lower at Amherst
loans 3500 higher at Amherst
Workstudy 100 higher at Amherst
11732 If all things would have remained consistent over her 4 years we would have had to come up with an extra $46,928</p>

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<p>I agree, sybbie, that the biggest drawback is not being able to compare FA awards. That is the crux of the decision. If comparing awards is something a family wants to do then they have to apply RD.</p>

<p>If the intention is that the student will attend their ED school if it is possible to do so (giving up the option to compare awards), then assuming they’re accepted, the question is whether or not it’s financially possible – not whether it’s the best deal they could have gotten anywhere else. People can be released from the ED agreement if they feel the aid award is insufficient. They have to do that early on, and they have to then take their chances in RD. Not the right path for everyone, but not the wrong one for everyone either.</p>

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<p>

Then your kid either has some merit money, or you have a very low EFC. Most middle class families are looking at paying a lot more than community college costs, even with generous financial aid awards. The OP has the NCP situation, and for her all bets are off. </p>

<p>I’m sorry, I’m in a different situation – moderate income, homeowner, and – like the OP – a NCP who hasn’t contributed a dime toward either kids’ college – and my d’s carrying a lot of debt and I’ve got a bunch of debt. I wouldn’t like to have been stuck with some of the financial aid awards I saw from colleges that supposedly met full need – but I don’t see how I would have known a strong award from a weak one the first time around. I mean… there are some college admission packets I tossed into the trash at the outset because the aid was so weak – but there’s a lot of wiggle room in the middle, along the lines that Sybbie spelled out.</p>

<p>And that can make a HUGE difference down the line, given the fact that a $10K difference in year #1 can translate to a $40K difference over the 4 years of college.</p>

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<p>We’re middle class and homeowners too. Of course, we’re actually middle class, not what many people on CC refer to as middle class. (Not saying you do this, calmom, but I’m sure you’ve seen posters who say things like “my family is middle class making $130K/yr.”)</p>

<p>I would not be concerned about taking on more debt than was sensible for me. I am very debt-adverse. If I had any doubts about that, I’d first appeal an ED award and if that didn’t work, I’d decline it and move on to RD.</p>

<p>And no, my kid gets no merit aid. His school does not offer it. Our EFC is pretty low, I guess, but we are very much a middle income family at around 67K/yr.</p>

<p>My biggest question when we applied ED was about the equity in the house, which is getting close to being paid for. Had the school not capped the home equity, and would not renegotiate that with us, we certainly would have moved on to RD. I would not have taken on loans above a few thousand a year… which we will have to do, paradoxically, for our other kid who is at an “affordable” in-state public.</p>

<p>My friend --her kid applied ED to a selective LAC-- has a second home which caused their expected contribution to go higher than they could reasonably afford. She appealed and explained that they had the second house for professional reasons, and the college then re-worked her aid award without that piece included.</p>

<p>My other friend, who appealed her son’s NCP contribution was, as I said, first denied and then successful by going up the ladder at the FA aid office.</p>

<p>Perhaps this is why I don’t think all appeals are automatically futile efforts.</p>

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<p>Colleges have different policies as to how they treat “appeals”. It’s naive to think that because family A. at school X successfully “appealed” that family B. at school Y. will have a good chance with an “appeal”. </p>

<p>I can see someone who needs financial aid opting for ED when it is very clear what their EFC will be – no wrinkles like an NCP or a 2nd home or recent job loss or change of employment. But anytime the financial aid situation is complex, then it really is disadvantageous to apply ED, because of the situation Sybbie explained regarding Dartmouth. Sybbie’s daughter could attend her top choice school only because of end-stage negotiation – if she had been accepted earlier and then turned down the award because it required too much in loans, there would have been no coming back. </p>

<p>Once you say “no” to an ED school, it’s “no” forever – plus the schools share their ED lists. So turning down an ED spot at one school because of financial aid considerations might also diminish the student’s chances of admission at RD schools who become aware of that situation. That is… perhaps if Sybbie’s daughter had been accepted to Dartmouth and refused the spot because of weak financial aid, then Amherst and Williams might have decided to pass on her as well. </p>

<p>So in my view, if a student strongly wants to attend a particular school but is unsure of financial aid, then their BEST chance of actually being able to attend that school is to go RD. ED forces them into making a decision early on based on incomplete information – I just don’t know why any parent would want to put themselves or their kid in that position. </p>

<p>I mean --with RD it was pretty easy to work with my kids in terms of narrowing down choices. We could put everything on a spreadsheet and see at a glance that some schools simply weren’t going to be under consideration because of the cost issues. Plus, the idea of a “dream school” fades pretty fast when the numbers are laid out, if “dream school” is clearly not competitive with the others. I didn’t have to play the role of the mean parent or discuss my financial concerns in detail with my kids – they could see the numbers themselves.</p>

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<p>Another thing to keep in mind is that the financial landscape/economy has changed drastically in the past few years! A college that was willing to consider appeal due to a “second home” or NCP income even as recently as a few years ago, may not be in the position to do so NOW. Many schools have had their endowments take a hit, and even those that haven’t seen large declines, I have to believe are getting more cautious with the funds they do have available. I also believe that parents who even a few years ago weren’t as concerned about FA are now! I have to wonder if schools are getting hit with more questions and more appeals.</p>

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<p>I have long felt that ED is appropriate only when there is that one “dream school” above all others, where acceptance chances want to be maximized, where the only question is “can I afford it?” RD should be used in all other cases, IMHO.</p>

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<p>On another note - the OP may now be looking for schools that will not require the NCP info and meet full need. They are few and far between and I am planning on doing some research to find such schools (I am a CP and D2 will be applying to college next year). When I get some real definite info I will start a new thread but just for starters I would suggest the OP look at the list of colleges that require Profile (but NOT the NCP Profile) the list is here for all Profile schools note some do not require NCP Profile:
<a href=“https://profileonline.collegeboard.com/prf/PXRemotePartInstitutionServlet/PXRemotePartInstitutionServlet.srv[/url]”>https://profileonline.collegeboard.com/prf/PXRemotePartInstitutionServlet/PXRemotePartInstitutionServlet.srv&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Then compare those schools with their financial aid pledges here
[Project</a> on Student Debt: Financial Aid Pledges](<a href=“http://projectonstudentdebt.org/pc_institution.php]Project”>http://projectonstudentdebt.org/pc_institution.php)</p>

<p>BUT (Huge caveat here) some schools that do not require the NCP Profile MAY ask for NCP info on their own school specific forms. Hence I need to do a lot of research! For example Vanderbuilt does not require NCP Profile, meets full need but I have to check if they require NCP on their own forms, UNC similar case for “poor” students if it applies to you. Good luck - with a lot of research I am sure your son can find a great school you can afford.</p>

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<p>The financial aid landscape has defintely shifted over the time that many of us have been on CC. We have seen schools go from need blind to need aware, from when Princeton was the only no-loan player in town to almost all of the ivies/elite LACs having some sort of no loan polcy to seeing those seeing thesr policies fall by the wayside. </p>

<p>I go through the admissions and financial aid policy every year and I agree with bhmomma that schools that may have entertained financial reviews and appeals a couple of years ago are not in the position to do so now. I have noticed that financial aid at schools that meet 100% need are not as “generous” with grant aid as they had been a few years ago. Schools that entertained non-custodial waivers a couple of years ago are no longer giving waivers. Wes was on our list when my daughter applied to college and they drew a hard line with financial aid then. Last year when one of my students was accepted, I saw that not much had changed with them.</p>

<p>I think another thing that happens is that students grow and needs sometimes shift a lot from the beginning of senior year to spring. One of the biggest reasons that my kid did not apply ED is because she really loved all of her schools. She had done multilple visits to all of then, stayed overnight and applied to schools on the basis of “if this is the only school that I am admitted to, will I be happy to attend.” At some point in time, every school she applied to was the top school on her list. </p>

<p>In addition, there was a lot of overlap between some of her schools and the students they attract, specifically at Dartmouth, Williams and Amherst (she was admitted “early” to all three schools). It was to the point that she met some of the same students at all three admitted students days (she ended up enrolling with at least 5 other students who had also been accepted to at least 2 out of the three schools, kissing the May 1 deadline).</p>

<p>I have also seen a lot of “buyers remorse” year over year froms students who were admitted ED and even some who were admitted EA and then stopped the process. Once April rolls around and students start buzzing over acceptances, you hear a lot of “I wonder if.”</p>

<p>Because we knew that there was going to be professional school on the horizion, we had the talk early on about taking on a minimal amount of debt because debt was definitely coming with part 2 (still filling out those financial aid forms too!). If Dartmouth had not met the Williams financial aid package, she would have still went, and we would have bitten big bullet that was almost the equivalent of her year law school tuition.</p>

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<p>Our EFC is pretty low, I guess, but we are very much a middle income family at around 67K/yr.</p>

<p>I think that families in that income group or below (without large assets and/or NCP problems) can comfortably apply ED at full need schools because they aren’t going to get an unaffordable family contribution.</p>