<p>Several have noted something like this: “The reason Duke doesn’t keep track of visits is because its an unfair advantage to those who have the means to visit Duke. Not everyone has the resources to visit every school they’re interested in, and so Duke doesn’t think that demonstrated interest should be a factor.”</p>
<p>Yes, I’m sure that is what they say, but I don’t believe it. It is simply not credible. Marketing is getting your product noticed by the target market. You can’t do that if you don’t know who that is, so keeping track of interest is a good idea. And this is the first instance I’ve found of a school that doesn’t keep track. If Duke were really that concerned about unfair advantages for those who have means, it wouldn’t charge $200,000 for four years. Duke doesn’t keep track because it doesn’t have to. If, for some reason, all those tens of thousands of applicants every year dropped by 10 - 20% or the yield rate suddenly dropped, Duke would decide to start keeping track of interest.</p>
<p>Also, this: “As far as extolling all of the attributes of Duke and a Duke education, I must agree with Dr. G. I believe that is one of the objectives of a recruiting session.”</p>
<p>There is a difference between “extolling the attributes” and overbearing and excessive boasting. We have not come away from any of the other 20+ schools we have visited in the past three years with this feeling. </p>
<p>Note: Boasting (Webster’s): To vaunt one’s self; to brag; to say or tell things which are intended to give others a high opinion of one’s self or of things belonging to one’s self; as, to boast of one’s exploits courage, descent, wealth.</p>
<p>Reverberating: It’s a no-brainer. Miniscule cost for UVa vs. $200,000 for Duke? Go 'Hoos! </p>
<p>K9 - I wish you all the best for you and your family. But you have now questioned the integrity of <em>my</em> family, so please understand if I accept the word of those with whom I have worked for 20 years and the experience I have gained teaching here and as a part of the recruitment process over your perceptions.</p>
<p>K9leader…your opposition to Duke seems somewhat unjustified and even a touch biased.</p>
<p>There is a large amount of private institutions that have tuition fees that add up to 200 grand over 4 yrs, this isn’t just practiced by Duke. Luckily theres this thing called financial aid. Though not everyone may qualify for it, but there are many that do. </p>
<p>I also don’t understand why you think Duke is being duplicitous in its failure to recognize demonstrated interest, nor do I get why it’s a good idea. Personally, I really wanted to attend Duke but there was no way with my parents working full time that I would get the chance to visit. I don’t think something like that should have been held against me. </p>
<p>I also don’t get the whole boasting comment. President Brodhead made it clear in his statement that though he wishes the students accept their spot at Duke, they would succeed regardless of where they attend. This attitude was reflected by many other faculty members as well. To me it didn’t seem like they wanted to flaunt Duke; it seemed more like they were eager to share their passion for their school, which isn’t a bad thing at all. </p>
<p>You say that none of the other 20+ schools were like this, but to be honest..I’m convinced that you were looking to confirm prior misconceptions about Duke. Of course you are entitled to your own opinion and I just hope people reading these posts don’t take everything as facts and instead explore schools on their own before making judgments.</p>
<p>I think it is great that Duke doesn’t keep track of demonstrated interest. It represents an effort on the part of the admissions office to be more meritocratic and not practice yield-sensitive admissions policies (e.g., Emory, Wash U.).</p>
<p>I am sorry that it came across as questioning the integrity of your institution. I did not mean to imply willful misrepresentation. I see it more as a rationalization Duke has made both to itself and to others. Tracking interest is another step in a complicated and costly process, so, in light of the very high demand for Duke’s product, it is not unlikely that the policy makers would lean toward not doing it. The question was probably asked “what are the pros and cons of not having a policy of tracking interest?” I’m sure that not making the cost of an in-person visit be a barrier to an applicant was one of the pros on the list. I do not believe it was the only one, or even the primary one. But it is the one that can most easily be put forward as the reason both to others and to yourself, a rationalization. Rationalization is one of the ways human beings cope with the complexities of our lives and our natures. Remember the scene in The Big Chill when someone commented on a rationalization someone had made (probably the Kevin Costner character whose suicide was what had brought them all back together)? One of the characters said something about being totally honest and never rationalizing. The Jeff Goldblum character, the sort-of sleazy tabloid writer, said that we need rationalizations to get through life and that they are more important even than sex. Someone else challenged that, and the Goldblum character responded with, “Have you ever gone a week without a rationalization?”</p>
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<p>The former was in response to my comments about the no-tracking interest policy. And the latter was in response to my (admittedly snarky) comment that “if Duke were really that concerned about unfair advantages for those who have means, it wouldn’t charge $200,000 for four years.” </p>
<p>Yes, there are a lot of schools that are very costly, but that wasn’t the point. The point was that it is inconsistent to charge that much yet point to a policy that you would be inclined to follow anyway as demonstrating your concern that applicants of means have an unfair advantage. Being “of means” is an advantage in everything in life. The more costly something is, the greater the advantage. So, to really make a difference, figure out how to make your product more affordable. And, Duke does that through various forms of aid, and, I would hope, through following the lead of the Ivies in using more of its endowment to make the product more affordable. </p>
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<p>Maybe I had some bias prior to the visit, maybe not. But my family had a negative impression after our visit and I commented on that. It is very tempting to charge anyone who disagrees with you or criticizes you of being biased against you. I teach 5th grade - 5th graders pretty much spend all their time looking for slights for which they can then loudly proclaim “That’s not fair!” It does not further the discussion, and, instead polarizes all the parties. Pretty much what our political system had become.</p>
<p>I would suggest you examine your own preconceived notions and biases. You “really wanted to attend Duke” but had never visited it, had never seen it, and based your great desire on what? Reputation, prestige factor, rankings, it often goes to the Final Four? Even if you based it on factors such as quality of education, quality of the major in which you were interested, size of the school, location, institutional mission, campus setting, or personal “fit,” how would you know for sure unless you had spent some time there? For a decision this significant and this costly, I cannot imagine making a reasoned, unbiased decision without gathering firsthand data. To make that decision without gathering firsthand data indicates a decision based on preconceived ideas. (With most prospective students, the problem is that they have negative preconceived notions so don’t want to visit certain schools. My daughter, with no more information than you had that convinced you Duke was the one for you, refuses to even look at a number of really great schools. However, my daughter did want to visit Duke and was expecting to like it, as her journalism teacher, whom she adores and worships, is a Duke graduate, so I don’t think she had negative preconceived notions about Duke.)</p>
<p>I would also point out that a personal visit is not the only thing that could be used to indicate interest. Phone calls, e-mails, visits with reps at college fairs or HS visits could and should count as demonstrating interest. And, those would be available to everybody, regardless of means.</p>
<p>I also take exception with your assertion that “there was no way with my parents working full time that I would get the chance to visit.” My wife and I work full-time and we managed to visit 14 or 15 schools when my son was looking and have done eight or nine with my daughter with several more to go over the summer and fall. And thousands upon thousands of other families who have working parents manage to do it. Our spring break road trip was six schools in three states over six days and 2,000 miles and virtually every other HS junior in the Mid-Atlantic and South was right there with us. The reality is that people do pretty much what they want to do and don’t do what they don’t want to do. If both parents can’t go, then only one goes. (We’ve done this.) Or you tag along with a friend’s family when they go. (We’ve taken our daughter’s friends with us on a couple of visits and she’s gone along with others on visits.) Or you get grandma and/or grandpa to go with you (Our son had a scholarship weekend to go to when his mother and I just could not go, so one set of grandparents drove him up and the other set brought him home.) Or you find another way – you are smart and creative and innovative enough to get accepted at Duke, you could have done it.</p>
<p>Also, don’t fall into that “I/we/they work full-time” as an excuse. Most of us work full-time. My wife and I have been, or currently are, Boy Scout and Girl Scout leaders, T-ball and soccer coaches, PTA president, treasurer, and newsletter editor, charity auction chair, sunday school teacher, swim team volunteer coordinator, dog club rescue coordinator, church youth group advisor, and have heard countless times when we ask a parent to help out with one little thing, to give up one evening or Saturday morning, “Oh, I can’t help – I work.” They say this with a straight face, oblivious that all the people around them who are providing their child with a valuable experience by donating hours and hours of their time also work.</p>
<p>Look, I didn’t mean to get into a p*****g match. I presented the perceptions I had from a visit to a school, perceptions that I have found shared by others on this website and others that I have spoken to personally (my daughter’s journalism teacher, a Duke graduate who was pleased when my daughter was going to visit, acknowledged after our visit when she heard our take on it that yes, that attitude is there, and it is a shame that it sometimes clouds all the good things that Duke has to offer.). And, it is natural to get your hackles up when someone is critical of something you are involved in, something that is your home, your family. </p>
<p>You in the Duke community can shout it down as the rantings of someone who’s “mean and unfair” or you can do a little self-reflection and ask why anyone would perceive Duke in this way and what can Duke do either to fix the flaws that resulted in this or to present itself in a way that disabuses people of these notions. </p>
<p>Now, to paraphrase Chief Joseph: “Of Duke, I will speak no more forever.”</p>
<p>Well K9 ----- DukeEgr93 is only one example of what makes Duke the incredible learning institution that it is. But alas, your daughter will never learn this because she was too busy being turned off by the school’s self-promotion. Oh well, her loss.</p>
<p>K9~After reading your posts it is rather evident that you are most interested in slamming Duke for not tracking interest. And…your response about a student’s inability to visit because both of her parents work was inexcusable. We will all applaud your family’s very important activities and your ability to visit colleges in spite of that–but you must respect another family’s situation. You have no idea what the circumstances of another family are. We know many families who cannot make a visit to any colleges that are not local or a short drive away. Most of them wait until they know where their son/daughter gets in before they incur the expense of a visit. I would never judge anyone by their ability to visit or not and Duke makes it clear that they understand a pre-application visit may not be possible. They, unlike Wash U or Tufts, or many other institutions, will not hold it against a student in the admissions process. </p>
<p>I am sorry you and your family did not like Duke–that’s just the way it is. Not all kids like the same colleges–if they did we’d all be going crazy. But please understand that while you are now focusing on other schools for your daughter, many students might be turned off by the schools she is most interested in! They all have different interests and want to order something off a very large menu of colleges! </p>
<p>Our experiences at Duke have been fantastic, from the one visit we made during S1’s junior year in HS (we are fortunate to be within driving distance) to Blue Devil Days and 3 Parents’ Weekends, plus a few other visits. We have met many, many students, parents, faculty members (including the great Dr. G!!) and others associated with Duke and have been most impressed with their friendliness, sincerity and attitude! S1 is incredibly happy at Duke–absolutely LOVES it, and is very sad that he is going to be a senior in just a few days!</p>
<p>I hope you and your D find the right school for her, and be aware that you will find just as much criticism of it (for whatever reason) from someone on CC (or elsewhere) who may not agree with your love for the school she picks.</p>
<p>K9, while you offered many solutions, they still aren’t feasible for a lot of people. </p>
<p>I for one wasn’t able to visit Duke because plane tickets are too expensive, and it is an extremely long drive from where I live that my parents weren’t able to make. I didn’t have a license at the time, so I couldn’t drive myself. I couldn’t visit with friends because only one other person in my school even applied to Duke, and she didn’t visit. The vast majority of people in my school applied to instate colleges, so they weren’t going anywhere near Duke. My grandparent lives in Europe, so that wouldn’t help. I’m not in contact with relatives outside of my nuclear family.</p>
<p>blahfishcakes~you don’t have to explain your inablility to visit a school–most of us completely understand that if a student is unable to make trips to colleges, it is for good personal reasons.</p>
<p>I still have no idea why demonstrated interest should count for anything when applying regular decision. ED is your chance to get a leg up by expressing your commitment to a school. Just because you want to go to a school more badly than someone else shouldn’t mean that you have an advantage over that other person in the admissions process (that seems totally insane to me) unless the school is really insecure about its ability to attract the applicants it awards admission to, in which case I wouldn’t really want to go to that school. Admission should be based on merit, not desire. Can you imagine if medical school admission was based on how badly someone wanted to be a doctor rather than how qualified he/she was?</p>
<p>Guys, how did this thread turn into a bash-Duke referendum? Please…I regret asking this now. I just wanted to know how you guys felt. It was all going good until it turned into a Duke vs. U of M contest.</p>
<p>Some folks just <em>can’t</em> help themsleves.</p>
<p>All the best to you, Predator. Ann Arbor is a terrific college town, the quality of the engineering school is beyond doubt, and don’t forget to go traying in the Arb!</p>
<p>Exactly! It is the only way of doing so. How else does a college know that you will commit to it once accepted? Things could change in a period of one month… I didn’t visit Duke before I got in, mostly due to distance. I visited a crap load of Ivies (Princeton, Harvard, Columbia, and Penn).. I didn’t get into any of those schools but got into Dartmouth (one I didn’t visit).</p>
<p>Came to this post late. It sounds like you were railroaded a bit by timing (maybe a bit by mom) into making a decision you probably would’ve made anyway. Or at least it would have made sense to make. I can’t see any difference between Michigan and Duke being worth going into major debt for. Michigan’s a top, top school and IMO underrated even with its high profile. And my strong impression is it’s a significantly more reputable engineering school than is Duke except in bioengineering. Pat yourself on the back for being admitted to Duke and move on. You’ll love Michigan, I have no doubt.</p>
<p>For the record, I have no connection whatsoever to either Michigan or Duke, except that I’ve had friends go to both.</p>
<p>K9,
I don’t have to explain my situation to you, my inability to visit Duke (before being accepted, see paragraph at the end for further explanation), but I will because I take issue with your assertion that just because one’s parents work full-time, it is not an excuse to visit Duke or other colleges. I applaud you for juggling various activities and your job, as well as having the time to take your children to visit 20+ colleges, but not all families are able to do that and because of many reasons. For example, both of my parents work full-time at restaurants and taking off even 2-3 days can cost them their jobs. Now, this may not be everyone’s situation, but it was for me. Also, I didn’t want ask my parents to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to take me to visit out-of-state colleges. Plane tickets, hotels, car rentals, they all add up to a pricey tag. My parents make about 25k a year, despite working full-time because of their minimum wage jobs, so visiting colleges that I might not go to simply sounded like a waste of money to me. This then goes back to another thread that I think was posted on front of the CC forum page, about whether education or even applying to colleges is for those who can afford it. I’m not going to embark on the whole debate here, but simply put, those with more wealth, have more means of opportunities available to them, like the ability to visit 20+ colleges, for example.</p>
<p>For the record, I was accepted to Duke without visiting it beforehand and will be attending this fall. I did go visit it after I got accepted, thanks to the kindness of the Admissions office which provided me funding to do so. I am very glad that Duke does not follow a policy of tracking demonstrated interest because it definitely would have provided others with an advantage over me. </p>
<p>PS. Ditto irishforever for what you said. My sentiments exactly.</p>
<p>I do applaud your admission to Duke and wish you much success. I did notice from your posting history that you entered Emory as a freshman in the fall of 2006. Were there any specific attributes of Emory with which you were dissatisfied, and were you able to transfer in to Duke without too much trouble? Best wishes this fall.</p>
<p>K9, to quote you:" Rationalization is one of the ways human beings cope with the complexities of our lives and our natures. Remember the scene in The Big Chill when someone commented on a rationalization someone had made (probably the Kevin Costner character whose suicide was what had brought them all back together)? One of the characters said something about being totally honest and never rationalizing. The Jeff Goldblum character, the sort-of sleazy tabloid writer, said that we need rationalizations to get through life and that they are more important even than sex. Someone else challenged that, and the Goldblum character responded with, “Have you ever gone a week without a rationalization?” "</p>
<pre><code> I think that you hit the nail on the head K9. Everyone rationalizes their decisions. It is apparent that this is what you need to do to make you feel better about your choice.
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<p>However, I have to point out that both the Regional admin officer and the admin officer who spoke when we visited last summer were 2 of the nicest and most helpful people that we had encountered in all of our college visits. It is disappointing that you had a different experience.<br>
In addition, several upper tier schools do not track a students interest for whatever reason. It shouldn’t be a factor in your decision making process. I actually like it. It prevents people from playing the “admissions game”
Just know that you will be happy at Uof M. But, please respect Duke just as the posters here have respected your decision.
Good luck!</p>