Long-time reader, first time poster. Our one and only child has narrowed her search down to three schools and looking for opinions from the CC community before May 1 Decision Day. Little background: Daughter is a serious student who will start school with a business major but I can see changing to something else. Planning for law school. Plans to stay in the midwest after graduation. Fortunately, as an only child cost is not a factor in the decision. Her three schools are very different in many ways, but each have pros and cons to her. Sheās been on each campus many times. As we try to help her think through the decision, hereās whatās going on in her mind:
Notre Dame: Great reputation, focused on undergraduate education, beautiful campus. She has gone to Catholic schools, but views on certain important issues are more liberal so worries about fitting in. Also, there seems to be a lack of socio-economic diversity. While not receiving financial aid, our family isnāt wealthy like most of the kids she seems to meet during tours. Finally, NDs āwork hard play hardā culture surprised her somewhat. Binge drinking and party culture is much more common than she expected. So great school, excellent reputation, but worried about religious/political conservatism, lack of economic diversity, and perceived drinking culture.
Michigan: Great reputation. Top programs in nearly every discipline so if she changes major four times will probably still be in an excellent program with lots of opportunities. Large schoolā¦more people means more opportunity to find her āfitā. According to other threads, they may give some benefit on law school apps for their own undergrads. And she loves Ann Arbor. But it is a big school with big classes, focused on research not undergrads. Farther away, so fewer trips home to visit. And while cost doesnāt matter in the decision, she has a hard time justifying asking parents to pay out of state tuition for a public school. So great school, excellent reputation, but wondering if itās really worth the money compared to the state flagship.
IU: Highly ranked business school if she sticks with business (have reminded her that ND and Michigan are even higher ranked). Very pretty campus. Down to earth students. Very familiar. Less pressure to be perfect. And even though cost isnāt a factor, she believes it just seems smarter to spend less for undergraduate especially since sheās planning on law school . But IU does have a party school reputation and she could get lost in the party environment. So great program at a good school, but parents worried she is turning down an opportunity at a more selective school.
As a parent itās hard not to get caught up in rankings, especially when she has an opportunity to attend a highly ranked school. But there seems to be an emerging discussion - especially with the admissions scandal - about the worth of highly selective schools. Seems a little disingenuous when folks like Frank Bruni and other academics discuss the lack of importance of elite schools when they attended elite schools. But weāre not talking about HYPS so makes this process even more challenging. Donāt want to overthink this, but also wanting to give good advice. Looking forward to reading your opinions!
are you instate for IU? Iām a big fan of both ND and Michigan, but IUās b-school is excellent and a whole lot less expensive (~$22k if instate). OTOH, Ross is one of the best in the country. (@Alexandre would probably say the best!)
Whether to spend the $65-75k is a family decision. Tell her to work the ROI between the three!
Law school is almost all about GPA+LSAT, so grades are critical. The good news is that currently, law schools are providing merit money for top quartiles numbers.
Great feedback (Ross MBA so I agree :)) Thanks. Instate for Indiana and earned a scholarship at IU so will only need to pay for room and board. ROI is difficult to justify anything but IU, if not for those difficult to measure āqualitativeā factors that ND and UM offer, including a perceived (?) stronger academic climate.
Rankings are meaningless, anymore. NPR recently cited research showing that a personās success depends on the personās ability rather than where they went to school.
Many people associated with ātopā schools want to perpetuate the myth of top schools. But if you consider that 95% of highly qualified applicants are rejected from some schools, is the assumption that those that are rejected simply fall off into the abyss and are forever disadvantaged by not going to the top school? Doesnāt make sense.
I think that the link you posted was spot on: āit dependsā.
And more importantly, there are several industries where prestige still matters. One is B-school, particularly Finance. Another is Law. (And another is Academia itself.)
OTOH, Accounting and Comp Sci majors are in such demand, that they can go to school anywhere. The Big Four Accounting firms recruit at nearly every college.
IMO, a degree from Ross will be extremely valuable in finding jobs early on if the D decides that law school is not in the plans. Employers try to be efficient. If they desire top grads ā such as high quant scores ā they can setup shop at Ross bcos most of those kids have great scores. Big Consulting and top IB/PE groups focus thier recruitment on top schools just bcos its easier for them.
But if law school becomes a reality, any good undergrad is fine as the LS becomes the terminal degree.
Back to the OP: IU on scholly would be hard to turn down.
I agree OhiBro. We went to average big ten schools and turned out just fine. But as parents itās easy to get sucked into the trap of wanting something ābetterā for your childā¦whatever that even means. Iām starting to see the wisdom of bluebayou. Go to IU, save hundreds of thousands of dollars, do very well as an academic all star, then go big for law school if so desired.
@decisiontime19 first, congrats to your D. She sounds like a great kid! She has 3 great choices!
Ask her: when you go to sleep, where do you see yourself? Which sweatshirt are you excited to wear? Which college would you be excited to be an alum from? Maybe also tell her to take 48 hours and think about/do something else. Let her brain sleep on it. And then 2 days later just blurt out, āwhere are you going?ā and see what her knee jerk reaction is.
Having said all that, if there is a shot that grad school is in the cards, you canāt beat that ROI at Indiana. And - while she is worried that it is a party school - there are kids there who are smart and dedicated, too. She will find her crowd at any school. It may be a bit easier to be that leader and that tippy top student at Indiana? Are there any differences (that she saw) between the schools with regards to teamwork vs. every one is out for themselves (ie. more cutthroat)?
I could type all night, but Iāll just leave it at that. good luck.
LVP: yes she is a great kid and thank you for the advice. She has always been the top student at her school and everyone expects her to go to a highly selective college. After seeing the ugliness of the college admissions process and feeling the stress on campus of many of the top 15 schools, I think she simply wants to keep learning, find a great group of like minded kids, and be in a comfortable environment. UM, although having higher admissions standards, has a similar vibe as IU. But being OoS she tells us weāre crazy for paying $200,000 more. Sheās probably right. Iām not hearing from the Board that going to IU is a bad choice. Soothes my parenting worries.
@DecisionTime19 Go with IU. I assume she was direct admit to Kelley? And was she admitted to Hutton Honors college as well?Being enrolled in these two academic units/schools two within IU should allay your concern that she would āget lost in a party environment.ā She is too serious a student from what you say and she will be too busy and surrounded by like minded serious students in Kelley and Hutton (assuming) to get lost in a party environment. GPA is king for law school applicants. If she is in the business school Ross at Michigan or in Mendoza business at Notre Dame she will be competing against the tippy top best students (as admissions to the business schools is even more stringent and difficult than the admissions to Mich LS&A and Note Dameās liberal arts academic units) out of an already outstanding applicant pool of admitted students. She should go where she has the best chance to achieve the highest gpa for law school. And in my opinion that would be IU whether she stays in Kelley (which has outstanding students but not as high stat students as are at Michigan or Notre Dame) or chooses a non-business major there. Itās an added bonus that the cost is less for IU than the other options. Law schools are so expensive these days that itās best to save for that if youāve can. And finding a lawyer job after law school is very difficult these days as there is a glut of lawyers, so itās most important to her highest gpa so one can attend a top 20 or 40 law school in order to have the best chance for securing a job after investing so much money.
We are in the exact same situation as DecisionTime19. We are in Indiana and looking at the same 3 schools (and Wash U) and have the same concerns about all of them. Could you give us an update and tell us what school she chose and how its working out?
A significant issue for a prospective business major is whether or not one has received ādirect admissionā into the business school as a business major.
Prestige in law matters for the law school, not really for the undergraduate school.
But yes Finance and Consulting are prestige driven.
She will find her people anywhere- and being a star at your UG is no bad thing! Not having debt is such a gift to somebody just starting out.
Fwiw, it is now typical to work for 1-3 years before starting law school (80% of this years entering class at HLS had worked for at least a year). Not having UG debt means that she can choose where that is w/o factoring debt payments into the equations.
Just saw this is from 2 years ago, @jtboiler. This is a slam dunk. If your daughter is comfortable going to IU, then thatās your answer. And I went to Michigan. Itās not worth an extra $200,000. No school is. Save your money for grad school. Your biggest gift to her is graduating with no debt. IU business is excellent. Rankings at these levels are worthless, especially after the first job.
Hereās my 2 cents. Iām not a big believer in rankings. A bright student can easily thrive at any school as long as he/she puts passion in their work. In fact, a student with top grades at an in-state school could be an advantage for a law school applicant. It shows financial practicality.
Iām not hearing from the Board that going to IU is a bad choice. Soothes my parenting worries.