<p>That's a very valid point bpayne. But it is also important to remember that not all students interested in a career major in Business at Michigan. Many chose to major in Economics or Political Science or Engineering or whatever. Some companies, like Goldman Sachs and McKinsey, routinely hire more undergrads from the school of LSA than from Ross. Unfortunately, the school of LSA does not publish detailed statistics on professional placement. I don't think Notre Dame's college of Arts and Sciences has detailed statistics on professional placement either. However, I am pretty sure that students from both colleges do very well. If their placement into top graduate schools (which is well documented) is anything to go by, it is safe to assume that professional placement from the Arts and Science programs at both Michigan and Notre Dame is quite impressive.</p>
<p>Once again Alexandre your analysis is spot on. UMich is lucky to have someone like you recruiting for them. :-)</p>
<p>I concede my point about Medoza being more prestigious and better for job placement than Ross. I did not know that Ross was such an exclusive part of the university of michigan. Looking on the Ross website, I see that its acceptance rate is 16%, while at ND anyone accepted to ND can switch into Mendoza. I had incorrectly assumed that gaining acceptance to Ross for umich would be the same as gaining acceptance to Mendoza for ND. And, obviously, I cannot further logically dispute your hiring statistics. </p>
<p>I personally would pick ND over Michigan, though I may not be going to ND, because ND has certain benefits as a private school, benefits which were not disputed by the pro umich people. One benefit about ND is flexibility. Believe or not, most 18 year olds are not sure what they want to do the rest of their lives. ND has the first year of studies program as well as personal advisers and a more personal administration. All of this together aids the freshmen in choosing what to do with their lives. To the initial poster, I would advise him/her to go to umich if he/she got into Ross as an incoming freshman, providing, of course, that he/she would be happier at umich than ND and that he/she was positive that he/she was positive about getting a BBA. Trying to switch into Ross after freshman year is a risk that deserves serious consideration. In addition, I personally feel the undergraduate education is stronger at ND with regards to liberal arts, with smaller class sizes and more accessible professors. </p>
<p>"
Again, I do not understand your basis for attack. " </p>
<p>My basis for attack is to discredit the praise that you give umich because it is a university that has repeatedly broke FEDERAL AND ETHICAL LAWS. No matter how much praise you give it, you cannot deny that it has repeatedly attempted to go against the foundations of MLK Jr.: "that one day, people will be judged not by the color of the skin, but by the content of the character." </p>
<p>On another note, ND's alumni network is stronger than that at umich. The ND grads have all had a unique experience of not just academics, but also community and faith; for this reason, the ND grads have all the trust in the world for any other ND grad. The alumni giving rate for ND is 4th, while umich trails way behind. Consequently, ND grads are guaranteed to find jobs as other ND grads feel a duty to help them. ND's alumni network is ranked 3rd. People who go to ND love it, more so than the umich grads love umich. Do the umich alumni allow recent grads to use their apartments? They do at ND. </p>
<p>"I'm surprised your uncle works there. He must have a low self esteem. I suggest he should look for work where most of the ND graduates go. That way he can continue to give graduates of his alma mater an edge. I see it's not working where he is now. :-)"</p>
<p>This is a seriously illogical slippery slope. You are assuming facts without knowing them. My uncle actually got his BA, MA, and PHD in econ at umich. That's right umich. He prefers ND grads over Umich grads because ND grads, collectively, have been educated on ethics, morals, faith, concepts that umich does not force its students to learn. Consequently, my uncle and most of his colleges at JP Morgan tend to trust ND grads more. The Ross school of business is more prestigious than Mendoza, but at Mendoza, students learn more than how to make money; at Mendoza, students learn how to be genuinely good, trustworthy citizens, values that transcend the "greatness" of money, values that my uncle and some of his colleagues tend to value. No employer wants to hire the next Eliot Spitzer, the next Enron CEO; no matter how smart one is or how prestigious one's university is, a good employer, so says my uncle, will always look to trust his/her employee.</p>
<p>i have a habit of checking posting records when a poster shows a clear biased propensity for one school, as I understand thejoker, you are in high school and choosing between colleges, which includes ND, perhaps you should just goto ND. You haven't even experienced college, but you sound like you have spent 4 years at ND.</p>
<p>Well I strongly support the schools that I have a strong interest such as ND, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, and Duke among others.</p>
<p>Thejoker, you are not correct about a lot of things. </p>
<p>For example, Ross is not that "exclusive" a part of Michigan. Yes, a student must maintain a 3.4+ GPA as a student at the University in order to have a good shot at getting into Ross, but UM students with 3.4+ GPAs generally have a better than 70% chances of getting into Ross. The 16% acceptance rate isn't for University of Michigan students, it is for pre-admits. University of Michigan students typically have a 40%-50% acceptance rate into Ross, and many of those who are denied admission are UM students with sub 3.3 GPAs.</p>
<p>Also, the correlation between alumni donations with alumni loyalty is not always linear. There are roughly a dozen LACs with higher alum donation rates than Notre Dame. Does that mean alums from those LACs are more loyal to their institutions than Notre Dame alums? Or, as is more likely the case, are those LACs more effective at getting alums to donate because there are fewer of them to reach out to? In most cases, alum donation rates are highest at institutions that have smaller undergraduate student populations because the smaller the number of alums, the easier it is to reach a high percentage of them and undergrads are more loyal than graduate students. Furthermore, schools with many legacy students also tend to have higher alumni donation rates because there is often a history of donations in that case. Finally, private universities have always relied heavily on alumni donations and as such, have developped, over the centuries, effective means of approaching alums for donations. State universities, on the other hand, were historically very wealthy thanks to federal and state funding and as such, did not need to raise money in order to operate. All that changed in the 1970s, when federal and state funding to state universities started to decline. Luckily, Michigan is one of the few state universities to have recognized that trend early and has done a great deal to counter its dependence on federal and state funding, but when it comes to alum donations, it is not nearly as effective as private institutions. That does not mean Michigan alums aren't loyal though. I personally do not claim to know how Michigan alums compare to alums from other universities, but as a group, I would say that Michigan alums are extremely wealthy, influential and fond of their alma matter like no other. Notre Dame and a handful of other universities have equally good alumni networks to be sure, but to claim they are better than Michigan's shows a lack of understanding and knowledge. I certainly don't know how you came to the conclusion that Notre Dame alums love Notre Dame more than Michigan alums love Michigan. How can anybody make such a claim with so much confidence? Have you actually conducted a survey of all 450,000 living Michigan alums and compared it to a survey of all 150,000 living Notre Dame alums?</p>
<p>I am not sure I agree with your point on ethics. Ethics isn't something you learn in a textbook. Professors at a university cannot teach a person ethics. A person is either ethical or unethical by nature. And it is funny you should mention Enron. If memory serves, Jeff Skilling, the main culprit in the Enron disaster, is a Southern Methodist University alum. Like Notre Dame, SMU prides itself in the fact that it instills good Christian ethical values in all its students. I am sure Skillings got straight As in all his Ethics classes too. </p>
<p>Out of curiosity, why do you think that for undergraduate education in the Liberal Arts, Notre Dame is better than Michigan? Michigan's departments in the Liberal Arts disciplines are all ranked among the top 15 in the nation, most of them are ranked among the top 10. Classes at Michigan are actually not that large, particularly past the intro levels and Michigan's faculty is extremely approachable. I have never heard of a student not being able to reach a professor or meet with a professor. Furthermore, Michigan undergrads placement into top graduate schools is impressive to say the least...comparable to most other top 20 universities.</p>
<p>In short, universities are very complex and generalizing about them isn't right. Clearly, you do not like Michigan. You have already expressed your opinion that it is a university that "breaks" laws and that its students are "ethicless". You are obviously welcome to your opinion, but I am not sure this forum is the right place to express said opinion.</p>
<p>Finally, I appreciate that you are close to your uncle and value his opinion. I have a similar relationship with my folks. When I was weighing my options for college back in the Spring of 1992, just as you are now, two of my choices were Columbia and Penn. My mom, an alumna of Columbia, and my uncle, a Wharton alum, both recommended I pick Michigan (and a couple other schools I was considering) over their alma matter. They felt that as an undergraduate student, I would get a more well rounded education in a more "undergraduate dominated" institution. I obvsiouly valued their opinion, but I did not rely on that alone. Ultimately, one should always go with what they FEEL most comfortable with.</p>
<p>"Thejoker, you are not correct about a lot of things. "</p>
<p>Then give me concrete evidence.</p>
<p>"
For example, Ross is not that "exclusive" a part of Michigan. Yes, a student must maintain a 3.4+ GPA as a student at the University in order to have a good shot at getting into Ross, but UM students with 3.4+ GPAs generally have a better than 70% chances of getting into Ross. The 16% acceptance rate isn't for University of Michigan students, it is for pre-admits. University of Michigan students typically have a 40%-50% acceptance rate into Ross, and many of those who are denied admission are UM students with sub 3.3 GPAs.
"</p>
<p>40-50% is a risk in my book. I should have clarified that if a student works hard, then he/she will have a good shot; however, acceptance into the business school as a sophomore is not guaranteed, not even close, like it is at ND.</p>
<p>"Also, the correlation between alumni donations with alumni loylaty is not always linear. There are roughly a dozen LACs with higher alum donation rates than Notre Dame. Does that mean alums from those LACs are more loyal to their institutions than Notre Dame alums? Or, as is more likely the case, are those LACs more effective at getting alums to donate because there are fewer of them to reach out to? In most cases, alum donation rates are highest at institutions that have smaller undergraduate student populations because the smaller the number of alums, the easier it is to reach a high percentage of them and undergrads are more loyal than graduate students."</p>
<p>"you (Alexandre) are not correct about a lot of things." You have no evidence for your point, rather you just made a well-reasoned conjecture. If your well-reasoned conjecture is true, then you validate an earlier post I made on the value of a private institution because attending a private institution forges a lifelong relationship with the given university as you remain in contact with them. </p>
<p>However, it is more likely that your well-reasoned conjecture is not true, or should not be considered true because you never bothered to consider that public schools could send the same type of request letter that private ones do. In this case, it comes down to how much the alums love their school, or how many are capable of expressing their love for their school. In the case of ND, less people may be capable of donating b/c many ND grads end up in non-profit fields. Yet ND is still leagues ahead of umich in alumni donation rates. In the 2007 edition of US news and world report college rankings, ND's giving rate was 4th, umich was 88th. Even if your conjecture is valid, can it shore up such a disparity? Here are some schools that disprove your conjecture. The following schools were listed ahead of umich for alumni giving rates: Georgia Tech, University of Alabama, Clemson University, University of Virginia, Virginia Tech, University of South Carolina, University of North Carolina, University of Delaware *, University of NebraskaLincoln *,. Florida State University *,Pennsylvania State UniversityUniversity Park *,University of Connecticut *, University of Oklahoma *,. University of Arkansas *,University of Kansas *, just to highlight a few. </p>
<p>Do you mean to tell me that all of these schools are smaller and thus are more aggressive in getting alumni donations than umich. BTw, the list went on and on; you should check it sometime. </p>
<p>"That does not mean Michigan alums aren't loyal though. I personally do not claim to know how Michigan alums compare to alums from other universities, but as a group, I would say that Michigan alums are extremely wealthy, influential and fond of their alma matter like no other. Notre Dame and a handful of other universities have equally good alumni networks to be sure, but to claim they are better than Michigan's shows a lack of understanding and knowledge.
"</p>
<p>First of all, don't put words in my mouth. I never said Umich alums were not loyal. They are, but according to stats and anecdotes that I have heard, ND alums are more loyal. Check the ND forum for the anecdotes (for example, an ND alum allowed a recent grad to live at his condo in SoCal, gave him baseball tickets, and paid for his gas), check us news and world report stats. This is called "understanding and knowledge." What you state "shows a lack of understanding and knowledge" as your only evidence is a well-reasoned conjecture, which I disproved above. Evidence is CRUCIAL.</p>
<p>"I am not sure I agree with your point on ethics. Ethics isn't something you learn in a textbook. Professors at a university cannot teach a person ethics. A person is either ethical or unethical by nature. And it is funny should mention Enron. If memory serves, Jeff Skilling, the main culprit in the Enron disaster, is a Southern Methodist University alum. Like Notre Dame, SMU prides itself in the fact that it instills good Christian ethical values in all its students. I am sure Skillings got straight As in all his Ethics classes too."</p>
<p>That was actually funny. Especially the part where you said that a person is "either ethical or unethical by nature". Well actually, if you believe in predestination then I should respect your beliefs, but what you basically said can only be backed up by predestination. According to your logic, parents should not even exist. If a kid is unethical, well then, clearly he is unethical by nature and instruction is useless. </p>
<p>Well according to my views, one can teach ethics. One can indeed instruct another on what is right and what is wrong. One can even, gasp, show one another by example what is right and what is wrong. This is what ND is largely about. Is everyone from ND a saint? no. Some ignored the instruction of ethics, just like Skillings, they took the instruction, memorized it for the test, and threw it in the trash. The point is that the instruction was given, and many, not all, heed the instruction and are better for it.</p>
<p>"
I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that for undergraduate education in the Liberal Arts, Notre Dame is better than Michigan. Michigan's departments in the Liberal Arts disciplines are all ranked among the top 15 in the nation, most of them are ranked among the top 10. Classes at Michigan are actually not that large, particularly past the intro levels and Michigan's faculty is extremely approachable. I have never heard of a student not being able to reach a professor or meet with a professor. Furthermore, Michigan undergrads placement into top graduate schools is impressive to say the least...comparable to most other top 20 universities.</p>
<p>I came to this conclusion like I come to every conclusion: logic and evidence. According to the US news and world report: ND's faculty resource rank was 17th, umich was 69th, at ND 55% of the classes have fewer than 20 students, at umich, 45%, at ND 11% of the classes have 50 or more, at umich 17%, the student faculty ratio at ND is 13/1, at umich 15/1, at ND the number of faculty who are full-time is 96%, at umich it is 92%, ND's selectivity rank is 15th, umich is 23th (translates to livelier class discussions and more intellectually charged campus if the average student is a better student or a student more desired by a college). Go ahead, make more conjectures disproving stats without giving stats that could not fall to the conjectures you initiate. Furthermore, I sat in on classes at both universities and witnessed that ND had smaller class sizes and more lively discussions and more accessible professors.</p>
<p>I have heard of numerous students not being able to approach their professors at umich b/c it is a public school with larger class sizes. </p>
<p>"Michigan undergrads placement into top graduate schools is impressive to say the least...comparable to most other top 20 universities." It is, but so is ND's.<br>
The difference between the two can be contributed to the fact that so many ND students dedicate their lives to further service, not further education and the fact that umich grad schools are more prestigious than Nd grad schools and favor umich undergads( check the disproportionate number of umich grads in umich grad schools).
<a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/college/feederschools.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/college/feederschools.htm</a></p>
<p>"In short, universities are very complex and generalizing about them isn't right." You should heed your own advice. You don't use evidence. You make conjectures that sound nice.</p>
<p>"Clearly, you do not like Michigan. You have already expressed your opinion that it is a university that "breaks" laws and that its students are "ethicless"."</p>
<p>I never said that I don't like michigan. You are putting words in my mouth again. The fact that it breaks laws has nothing to do with my like or dislike for it; it is a FACT. I never said "its students are ethicless". You are putting words into my mouth again. I said that umich does not instruct ethics or make a concious effort to expose its students to them.</p>
<p>" You are obviously welcome to your opinion, but I am not sure this forum is the right place to express said opinion."</p>
<p>Much of what I say is not an opinion. Much of what I say are facts. Look, I even provided links and sources for you. My facts are researched b/c of the opinion that I have that ND is a better fit for me. If you fail to recant much of what you said, you have an opinion that facts are meaningless and that one should be ignorant of them. I do my research b/c I personally feel ND is a better fit for me. But my research results that I post are facts not opinions. Maybe you could research the difference between facts and opinions. </p>
<p>This final section was hypocrisy at its finest. Here you tell me that I should not talk about my opinion, yet you give the opinion of your uncle, your mom, and yourself. </p>
<p>"You are obviously welcome to your opinion, but I am not sure this forum is the right place to express said opinion.</p>
<p>Finally, I appreciate that you are close to your uncle and value his opinion. I have a similar relationship with my folks. When I was weighing my options for college back in the Spring of 1992, just as you are now, two of my choices were Columbia and Penn. My mom, an alumna of Columbia, and my uncle, a Wharton alum, both recommended I pick Michigan (and a couple other schools I was considering) over their alma matter. They felt that as an undergraduate student, I would get a more well rounded education in a more "undergraduate dominated" institution. I obvsiouly valued their opinion, but I did not rely on that alone. Ultimately, one should always go with what they FEEL most comfortable with."</p>
<p>Your statements are out-of-line and downright offensive. I am taken aback by the lack of decency you have exhibited towards me. Are you implying that the opinion of your uncle, your mom, and yourself, are all far more superior to mine? Why do my opinions not belong on this forum, but theirs do? BTw, much of what I stated is facts and logic not opinions. Well anyways, I apologize for my apparent inferiority. I will try to work on that.</p>
<p>Thejoker, you and I clearly view things differently. Let us leave it at that. </p>
<p>However, I am not entirely clear how I offended you or how I exhibited a lack of decency toward you. Where did I say that my mother's or uncle's opinions are superior to yours? I merely stated that they did not recommend their own alma matter, just as your uncle does not recommend his. My point was not that my relations are somehow wiser, but rather, that you should go with what feels best to you.</p>
<p>At any rate, best luck to you as you decide on which college to attend. You have a great selection to chose from.</p>
<p>Thejoker just go to ND or some other private school on your list. They are all fine institutions. Personally I would never go to ND. I am not catholic and would feel quite out of place with the environment there. Everyone has their reasons for attending the college that they feel comfortable with. It doesn't serve you well to be downplaying other institutions, while assuming yours is superior. On the contrary, it makes you look pompous and arrogant. Not a good quality for anyone to emulate. Alexandre is one of the good guys here. He isn't a "super moderator" for nothing.</p>
<p>I merely explained why ND, and most other private schools, are better fits for me than umich. I used logic and evidence. </p>
<p>Alexandre, you offended me by stating that my opinions are not welcome on this forum while your uncle's and mom's opinions are. You implied my inferiority. </p>
<p>Nonetheless, I appreciate your final advice on telling me to go with what is best for me.</p>
<p>Thejoker, I never intended to imply inferiority. On a separate note, I recommend NU over ND and Vanderbilt, but that's just one man's opinion.</p>
<p>Thank you for reassuring me about your intent Alexandre. I truly appreciate it. </p>
<p>As for the choice between NU, ND, and VU, I encourage you to post in the forum I opened up for. I thank you for your opinion. I am leaning towards NU as well. Feel free to help me choose this. I value your thoughts.</p>
<p>i'm an arts and letters major at nd. i can attest they have a lot of small classes here. the average class sizes might be inflated by the general sciences. pretty much all the classes i have taken are 10-20 people big. theres a good support system here as well: advisers who keep in touch, free tutoring for freshmen, and a writing center thats useful.</p>
<p>At Michigan, average class size for first years in science = less than 35
math-less than 30, english-less than 18, if i remembered correctly all the freshman seminars are capped at 20 per class. </p>
<p>There's free tutoring for all freshman and sophomore level classes, you can go somewhere to get tutoring, or a lot of the freshman level classes have tutors coming to your dorms every other night, this is in addition to the regular professor office hours and TA office hours, and the exam reviews. </p>
<p>There's a writing center at Michigan as well, helps with all your writing needs for classes. When I was applying to grad programs my senior year, a couple humanities professors volunteered to help us with the essays. </p>
<p>I'm sure most of the top level schools have these things, they are not really all that different as far as classes/tutoring/professors are concerned. </p>
<p>notre dame is much more prestigious than umich and is a much better school
simple</p>
<p>God, country, NOTRE DAME</p>
<p>i don't know about that. at the undergraduate level, I would much rather go to Notre Dame. However, at the graduate level, i would much rather go to michigan.</p>
<p>I would be interested in seeing stats of Wall St. hiring for these two universities as a whole - i.e. ALL undegrad hiring. I'm not convinced that the hiring will be restricted to undegrad business majors. Why should it be? There's plenty of hiring by Wall St. from Yale and Harvard, which offer no undegrad business degree.
I would also intuit - not knowing the actual numbers, I admit - a preference for ND. ND alums I have know seem far more devoted to their school than those from Michigan. They are true believers.</p>