All the stuff about millionaire entrepreneurs and prestige and starting salaries is really noise. These two schools are both great but are just soooo different.
Your kid should pick the one she likes and wants to attend. Urban/northeast/Boston vs. midwest semi-isolated campus. Greeks vs. Stay Hall system. Uber geeks vs. a rah rah old fashioned college experience. Catholic/community oriented culture vs. secular. Big time sports school vs. a school where sports could not be less important. And on and on.
“We are from New England, and honestly Notre Dame is a bit of an unknown entity.”
This is a ridiculous statement. Did you not notice the sold out football game over at BC this past weekend? Or the sold out game in 2015 that was played in Fenway Park? I bet more people in Boston know ND than know MIT.
ND has a HUGE national brand. Like Duke hoops, it started with sports but is now way bigger than football.
My daughter had to decide between ND and an Ivy. She said she had to ask herself if the latter school were not an Ivy would she like it better than ND–and that settled it for her–very happy at ND. The “legendary” alumni support and networking is very real.
Honestly rowswim you and your daughter need to decide what she wants. Of the schools mentioned MIT is the outlier by far because of the much lower level of sports. With your chosen name it seems she is a rower which might not matter as much. But in most sports Duke and ND are many levels above MIT. The Ivies are somewhere in-between. The decision between MIT and the others should be rather straightforward. The decision between the D1’s has no right answer and all choices are superb.
@luloobee That’s a great exercise for clarity on the matter. Thanks for sharing. @northwesty ND definitely has a big brand for sure. First thing many people think of is football. I meant unknown entity in terms of its academic rankings. And perhaps one should never generalize, so I’ll clarify and say ND’s academic reputation was unknown to my family initially.
@rowswim, I only have anecdotal evidence, and, as often noted, anecdote is not the plural of data. DS has interned twice at prestigious employers who recruit heavily for interns. The interns are a varied bunch, and include students at UChicago, CMU, Cornell, Harvard, etc. To the best of my recollection, he didn’t have a single ND intern working alongside him. The number of MIT interns was probably higher than Harvard, and for sure higher than the number at any other school, including Yale (his school).
These internships and jobs were in Chicago and NYC, which might affect the results. Additionally, they were software engineering / financial engineering positions.
My personal work experience (I’m old, btw) is that MIT hugely outranked ND in terms of reputation in the fields that I worked in (consulting, software, banking). I worked with many MIT grads. The ND grads that I knew were very successful, financially, but seemed to be more in the sales and marketing areas.
No disrespect to ND, but if it were my kid, it would be a no-brainer to favor MIT (assuming that the finances are workable).
The biggest edge, aside from top academics and world renowned reputation, that MIT has over ND is that it is located in a vibrant city with proximity to a lot of cool stuff, while ND is in Indiana.
@rowswim Keep in mind the academics will come a distant 2nd at ND. MIT will be academics 1st and sport 2nd. At MIT IF your S drops his sport he is still able to continue his education. IF he goes to ND and drops his sport what happens? The big difference in time dedication to sport at ND vs MIT is night and day. This includes scheduling of classes, practice times etc…
For female rowing, MIT is D1 in the Patriot League. ND is D1 in the ACC. But is a pretty obscure sport at either place. At the Power 5 schools (like ND), female rowing exists mostly as a title ix offset to the headcount and scholarships used up by football. ND rowing might be a little more serious than MIT, but it likely has a lot better support structure for the athletes since ND’s athletic department is one of the best and wealthiest that there is. So in terms of the sports team, I’d say it is close to a wash. But very well played by the kid to find and excel at an obscure sport that can be used to open so many doors at such great schools.
MIT is the probably the best engineering school in the world. If that’s what the kid really wants, easy decision. Since this question is being asked, it sounds like that isn’t what the kid obviously wants.
ND is a top 15-20 school overall with a tight knit and passionate community and alumni network. The engineering program is good, but it is no MIT. That’s way more than enough to get the kid pretty much wherever the kid wants to go.
As former ND football coach Lou Holtz says, you go to Notre Dame for two educations, 1) An education on how to make a living, and 2) An education on how to live. The whole person student experience is the place where ND excels, although that student experience is not for everyone. If the kid really digs ND, then encourage the kid to pick ND. One of the buildings at ND has this inscription “God, Country, Notre Dame.” Does that elicit an eye roll or a “hell yeah” from your kid?
If the kid picks ND and your friends bug you about turning down higher ranked MIT, give them this Holtz quote as a response: “For those that know Notre Dame, no explanation is necessary. For those that don’t, no explanation will suffice.”
“The biggest edge, aside from top academics and world renowned reputation, that MIT has over ND is that it is located in a vibrant city with proximity to a lot of cool stuff, while ND is in Indiana.”
No one goes to ND to experience South Bend or have a cosmopolitan college experience. The ND student experience is almost entirely focused inside the campus boundaries. Some kids think that is stultifying. Other kids think that is what makes for a great community. Depends on what you like and what you are looking for.
@ rowswim: all of the schools you mentioned are all top notch and prestigious. I am not sure if one can compare and ask if one is “better” than the other. They each have its unique positives and negatives. Your son will get an excellent education and be prepared for the job market at any of those schools. Given that your son is a very hard worker he will do well no matter where he goes. What’s more important is where will he thrive as a person the most? Where will he feel “at home” and enjoy his college experience? Where can he best balance sports, academics, social life, etc? Where can he meet people that he can be friends with for life? College decision cannot be about prestige or the starting salary of recent graudates. Many of fortune 500 CEOS did not attend top schools. Besides, who really cares what your neighbors think if your child is not as happy as he can be?
Very different campus cultures at the two schools. He should look at the course offerings in subjects of interest to him to see differences/similarities. He should also look at noncompetitive rowing at each school since this seems to be his sport. There may come a time when a club sport, not the team, is what he wants. The boat house at UW-Madison is huge, btw.
Being “only” 1 1/2 hours to Chicago is not a selling point. College students will be spending the vast majority of their time on/near campus- they simply do not have the extra 3 hours travel time (or transportation) to be going to a city. UW students do not make that same time trip to Chicago- plenty to do on/near campus in Madison on weekends. Serious students look closer to campus for fun.
His life path will in part be determined by where he chooses to go to college. Not all good paths need to be east coast or in the uppermost tier to have a satisfying life. Many top CEO’s come out of different places, I’m aware of my alma mater and I’m sure many other schools can boast those who do well on the big stage for business.
FWIW, the kid appears to be a female rower being recruited as a D1 varsity athlete. With recruited varsity athlete being the hook that is opening so many doors. At many non-Ivy schools (like ND), for title ix reasons only womens rowing is a recruited varsity sport. MIT is a D3 school for sports, except that it does rowing up at the D1 level.
I was surprised to read that MIT conducted a pre-read. If your daughter does not have a clear favorite, I would factor in the amount of pull the coach will have with admission in making your decision. Some schools give their coaches slots while other schools don’t. Unless the rules are different for D1 sport at MIT, MIT falls in the latter category.
IMO, depends on how important rowing is to your child. For me, rowing would be a means to end. If it were my D, I’d tell her that it’s not basketball or soccer, larger and more competitive D1 sports, both with professional leagues available both in the US and overseas. I think ND is a wonderful school, but it would be MIT for me.
I always feel you should pick the school that you’d like to attend assuming you didn’t play the sport. Use the sport to get in, then continue the sport (or not) once you get there.
But rowing at MIT might actually be a bigger deal than rowing at ND. Rowing is MIT’s only D1 sport and rowing is a bigger deal in Boston/Charles River than almost any place else.
Womens-only rowing exists at big time football schools primarily to provide headcount to offset the football team for title ix. ND reported 66 team members to the government. Oklahoma reported 93! And most of those heads are walk-ons who never rowed before college and who are likely to drop off once the title ix reports are filed. So rowing is probably the smallest fish in the big ND sports pond.
@rowswim - does she need to commit to ND by a certain date? If so, that’s a big consideration. She may not hear from MIT for a long time, and the news may not be good. My daughter was recruited by MIT last year and did not get in. It’s extremely tough to get in, even if recruited. My daughter was NM, Valedictorian, 4.0 UW, etc., etc… Just something to keep in mind - good luck with the process, it’s an exciting time!