Hi, I’m a senior trying to decide between University of Pennsylvania and Notre Dame. Being a devout Catholic and having very conservative values, I feel like socially and community-wise ND would be a better fit. However, wanting to pursue an MD-PhD and having pursued years of award-winning scientific research already, I feel like academically Penn is a better choice. I have an extremely type-A personality, but am very compassionate and kind (not mean competitive) and I’m worried about people being mean-competitive at Penn. However, I could be totally off. I’m so conflicted! I don’t know what to do!
These schools are extremely close peers. Attending students at Penn have slightly higher SAT scores while Notre Dame students have slightly higher ACT scores.
They both produce about 350 medical school applicants per year. Since ND is a little smaller in terms of undergrads, a larger percentage of each class is hoping for a medical career. Notre Dame has a much higher percentage of undergrads, 75% of total enrollment, compared to Penn, 42%.
You should go where you are most comfortable and happy.
These schools are both so strong academically that you should just go where you feel you belong. Sounds like that’s Notre Dame. Go Irish! 
I wen to Penn and my H and S went to ND. Two amazing schools. If you think one is a better fit (and it sounds like you do), then go for it.
@kellets "I feel like socially and community-wise ND would be a better fit. "
An important aspect of the college experience is about learning about people who are different from you. There will be plenty of Catholics, but I also think you will find that you have more in common with non-Catholics than you may believe now.
@kellets “I’m worried about people being mean-competitive at Penn. However, I could be totally off.”
Penn students tend to be smart, hard working, sociable and cooperative. Mean, cutthroat students will be socially isolated and struggle at Penn.
“These schools are extremely close peers. Attending students at Penn have slightly higher SAT scores while Notre Dame students have slightly higher ACT scores.”
Ummmm, no about close peers. Notre Dame is a great school, but most students in this situation will attend Penn. It isn’t really close.
The scores of students are similar because Penn does not weight test scores. Penn weights GPA and ECs much more heavily. There is no test score that will get you into Penn, they want students who do things. I am sure they were impressed by your research. Penn will offer you endless opportunities for research with the world’s best students at one of the world’s best research hospitals right on campus.
@kellets “academically Penn is a better choice”
Yes. Penn gathers the best science students in the world to study and conduct research at one of the world’s best research hospitals. They have invited you. If you have that level of ability, and want to be a PhD.- MD. I would think a long time before turning down the opportunity.
Consider attending Penn’s Quaker Days, and see what they have to offer. I think you will be impressed with the students and the research opportunities.
@Much2learn Oh please come up with some other reasons to criticize ND. How about there is a chapel in every dorm. At least that would be factual.
Numbers are great because they don’t lie.
The rest of your post is just opinion that can never be backed up with any fact. Just Ivy League mumbo jumbo.
Just look at the numbers. They tell all.
Keep in mind that ND achieves such high average test scores even with a massive D1 sports program.
Penn and Notre Dame are not quite on the same level: Penn is a notch up from Notre Dame.
You cannot judge the quality of education on the students’ test scores, since students do not teach.
For that, we need to evaluate things like faculty honors/awards, faculty ratings, class sizes, research expenditure and production, research spots open to undergrads, faculty publication rate, graduation rate, etc.
Penn’s closest undergrad peers are UChicago and Columbia, two other schools that are very highly ranked in a plethora of programs, but not quite as strong as HYPSM. You might broaden the Chicago/Columbia/Penn group to include Dartmouth, Duke, Brown, Cornell and Northwestern – maybe even Johns Hopkins – but ND still would not be in that group.
I believe Notre Dame’s peer group to include Washington U, Vanderbilt, Rice, Georgetown, Emory, and Carnegie Mellon. Those are all excellent private schools, ND included. They just aren’t quite at the prestige level (or overall program ranking…) of Penn, Columbia, Chicago, and others mentioned in the previous paragraph.
Now -- peer group discussion aside -- Penn is not so far above Notre Dame that a student should simply flock to it automatically when faced with this dilemma. Rather, go down the "fit" checklist -- academic programs and classes, financial, sociocultural, weather, location, physical environment, etc. -- and choose based on the results.
Now for the “political fit” stuff:
It is true that Notre Dame is more conservative than Penn is. But there are plenty of conservative students at Penn for you to hang around with if you so choose – Penn does have a pre-professional vibe emanating from Wharton, so it’s not like Penn is as liberal overall as Reed, Vassar or Swarthmore. Business students tend to be more conservative than, say, most humanities majors, so don’t worry about the school lacking people who agree with you.
I do challenge you to seek discourse with those who do not readily agree with you: hanging out with people who mostly or always agree with you can get pretty boring, and getting into a good-natured argument now and then will cause you to gain a more rounded grasp of a particular issue by being introduced to different perspectives.
And I think you will find that personality is more important than politics. Some of your best friends might end up being near-opposites of yours politically because in other areas, you mesh. Don’t let politics keep you from people with whom you might otherwise share a lot in common.
@onthebubble “Oh please come up with some other reasons to criticize ND.”
There is a difference between comparison and criticism. I like ND. I would not hesitate to send my own daughter or son to ND if it was a good fit.
“Numbers are great because they don’t lie. … Just look at the numbers. They tell all.”
You clearly don’t know very much about holistic, competitive admissions.
@todd87 “It makes no sense to attend a school that doesn’t fit you.”
I agree with this. If the OP really wants to go to Notre Dame, then s/he should do that. S/he will definitely get a great education there. Go to Notre Dame and never look back. You will be a big success.
However, if the OP is really torn, but nervous about stepping a bit outside their comfort zone, then I would encourage him/her to consider taking on that challenge. You may be nervous about being successful there, but Penn is confident that you have the ability to succeed, or they would not have admitted you.
I am confident that no matter which decision you make here, you will look back on it years from now, and think that it was the best decision you ever made.
How are brown and dartmouth on the same level as chicago or hopkins for faculty accomplishments or department rankings? The former are abysmal for engineering and science and research expenditures and do not have nearly the nobel success as the latter. Overall undergrad ranking wise by us news or the all important peer reputation score, they dont compare to chicago or hopkins either. confused by the prezbucky contradiction
“abysmal for engineering”.
Not sure if Brown and Dartmouth are the best in engineering but your statement is such a hyperbole.
Penn has Penn Newman Catholic center and a beautiful catholic church:
Penn Newman:
http://www.newman.upenn.edu/
St. Agatha - St. James Church:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/st-agatha-st-james-church-philadelphia
Paul, feel free to show data contradicting my assertions
I forgot one thing: Philadelphia is a strong Catholic community. The Pope just visited there.
Almost 1.5 million people are catholic.
Someone like you will excel in any environment. It sounds like you prefer ND. Trust your instincts.
“For that, we need to evaluate things like faculty honors/awards, faculty ratings, class sizes, research expenditure and production, research spots open to undergrads, faculty publication rate, graduation rate, etc.”
Fair enough.
First Year Retention/4 Year Grad/5 Year Grad
ND: 98%/91%/95.1%
Penn: 97%/86.9/94.3
Students Going to Grad School:
ND: 30%
Penn: 20%
Students Going to Medical / Dental School
ND: 7%
Penn: 5%
Full Time Faculty:
ND: 12000/1,119, 10:1
Penn: 21000/1,474, 14:1
Ratio of Undergrads to Total Enrollment:
ND: 70%
Penn:46%
Class Rank Top 10%, 5%, 1%
ND: 90%, 75%, 34%
Penn, 93%, , ?, ?
Faculty Fellowships 1999 - 2016
ND: Rank #1, 57, National Endowment for Humanities. Total Fellowships: #5, 161
Penn, Rank #8, 16, National Endowment for Humanities, Total Fellowships, #7, 133
SAT/ACT scores already discussed.
Nuff Said, peers, apart from Ivy League Romance…
Stats side issue. The facts are the Penn is ranked higher for a reason.
Average incoming GPA (Common Data set)
Penn 3.93 (highest in the Ivy league)
ND Declined to publish
World Class research hospitals on campus (Been to both)
Penn 1
ND 0
Research spending (http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/univ/r_and_d/r_d_nsf_2012.htm)
Penn $886 million #11 Nationally (80% of that on in life sciences (particularly biology and medicine).
ND $134 million #126 Nationally
Median Earnings 10 years after initial enrollment (The Economist, US Dept of Education)
Penn $78,200
ND $69,400
% of cross admits choosing: (Parchment)
Penn 69%
ND 31%
Back to OP
I agree completely with @todd87
If you have made up your mind. Move forward and be confident in knowing what is right for you. If you are really torn, consider attending the admitted student days at both schools. Meet the other admitted students, and professors, tour the research facilities.
Take a lot of pre-written (so you don’t forget them) questions about opportunities for you do to research. Ask those questions at both schools. The more you know about exactly what you are getting at both schools, the more of an informed decision you can make.
The hair-splitting prestige stratification in post #8 is fine for a parlor game, but should it really come into play when making a choice of where to spend 4 years?
@OnTheBubble Could you provide the source for your stat in post #16? I just had quick look at UNSWR and found your post has a gross error.
According to USNWR, Penn student-faculty ratio is 6:1 (not 14:1 as you posted).
ND student-faculty ratio is 10:1.
Other info like class ranks are also incorrect.
Penn common data set:
http://www.upenn.edu/ir/Common%20Data%20Set/UPenn%20Common%20Data%20Set%202015-16.pdf
Notre Dame common data set:
https://www3.nd.edu/~instres/CDS/2015-2016/CDS_2015-2016.pdf
(Okay, here’s what you should do @kellets now that posters have started squabbling. Pick the person whose argument you like best and go to their choice of school, Penn or ND.)
Just kidding. The schools are close in quality of education and students. I’m a Penn alum. Visit both one more time if possible. Then go with your instinct. You really can’t go wrong.
One thing about Penn: look into the University Scholar Program. It doesn’t take incoming freshmen - it’s a program you apply to as a freshman or sophomore. See if that interests you.
@moooop “The hair-splitting prestige stratification in post #8 is fine for a parlor game, but should it really come into play when making a choice of where to spend 4 years?”
Prestige stratification does not really matter for a MD-PhD. candidate. What does matter is access and opportunity to do world class research.
The only 2 stats that really matter for a student interested in medical research are these:
World Class research hospitals on campus
Penn 1
ND 0
Research spending (http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/univ/r_and_d/r_d_nsf_2012.htm)
Penn $886 million #11 Nationally (80% of that on in life sciences (particularly biology and medicine).
ND $134 million #126 Nationally
Penn is spending 700% more on research than ND and the research hospital is right on campus. If you want to participate in world class research, you have to go where it is done. It will not come to you. Penn is listed in US News as #3 in medical research for a reason.