<p>
</p>
<p>Check out some of the competitive high school math examinations we do here in the US. I assure you they make the math tested on the IIT-JEE look like a cakewalk. </p>
<p>Don’t jump to conclusions like the caliber of students admitted at X is better than Y when you aren’t aware of the caliber of students at Y.</p>
<p>I feel like I have a little to add to this conversation. A little background here, I’m from the Cornell Class of 2015. I did get a rank in the IIT, but not one high enough to get me Computer Science. I was referred to this thread by a junior of mine who thought I could offer some insight.</p>
<p>I’ve seen a good 4 to 5 years of debate on this issue and have spoken to quite a few legendary IITians as well as students from equally good US colleges. My major is Computer Science, so much of the “good” US colleges I’m talking about excel at CS - MIT, CMU, Cornell, Stanford, Berkeley, etc. I have friends at NUS who also feel the same way. Here’s the uniform consensus. Mind you, I’m not saying I’m right, I’m just saying people from all these schools agree on this. </p>
<p>IIT’s have great students. This is not a matter of question. They have some absolute geniuses. From Rudradev Basak, the top Indian on TopCoder, to ex-IITian now MITian Raghu Mahajan, IIT sure does have some absolute legends. Their genius is unparalleled. Most of these legends are the ones we here of when we think IIT. These are the ones who “rake in the $100k salaries”, the ones who do their PhD abroad and become professors at these universities, the ones who start great companies, and well, the academic legends. Bear in mind, IIT has its fair share of stupid people. Overall though, the student body is very capable.</p>
<p>Problem 1: Subject of Study
At IIT, I can’t put a number on it, but a good 70-80% study something they are not interested. Most of them don’t have an interest at the time of admission. They’ve been trained in Math, Physics and Chemistry. No 18-year old knows what half the streams are about, forget having a favorite. In the long run though, most end up studying something completely our of sync with their tastes.</p>
<p>Problem 2: Money
A lot of people defending IIT like to blurt out a lot of excuses - “we’re only a 50 year old institution”, “we don’t receive enough government funding for research”, etc. While I understand that, I don’t understand why stating a weakness should make me overlook it. US universities have research budgets in the millions, millions to pay their professors, millions of alumni donations, and millions to pay for infrastructure.
Money has its benefits - these foreign universities thus have better professors, better dorms, better food, better buildings, better more cutting-edge research facilities, a bigger platform, yada yada. Point is, money makes these things better.</p>
<p>Problem 3: Conceitedness about Student Quality
From any of the truly smart IITians I’ve spoken to, none of tried to establish that the IITians were better in anyway. One of my incredibly smart close friends at an IIT (has a 9.6 cgpa if you want numbers) tells me, “You’d be surprised by the amount of dumbos we have here. We’re quite lucky they don’t get the coverage”. There can be endless debates about which universities have the best quality students. If you know anything about statistics, you can’t compare this metric by the “best” student(s), or the “worst” student(s), you need to find a mean or median quality, which is frankly impossible. As someone who has seen both worlds, I know that all good universities have a lot of really smart people, from people in the US who got job offers for stuff they made from Google/Facebook to people in IIT who could (and did) transfer into MIT by filling out the application in a few days. It’s stupid and frankly you’re stupid to say something like “MIT had better students than IIT” or vice versa. There’s no hard data. From what I see, both have a lot of smart students. However, we come to problem 4.</p>
<p>Problem 4: Educational Quality
There are large amount of top 500 rankers in the IIT who choose to go abroad for their education. Even IITians who chose to stay in India will for the most part admit, the teaching quality is horrible. For the most part, IIT professors are unapproachable and are big fans of 'ratta’baazi - rote knowledge. While education in the US is more practical based, at the IIT it isn’t. This is one of the reasons that so many of the former AIR 1s at the IIT decided to go abroad, to MIT.</p>
<p>Conclusion:
I can go on about this, and I have seen the world from the point of view that most of you do/have done. I was once a hardcore IIT aspirant. I stopped caring about it since I made Cornell. At Cornell, I met a bunch of top 500 IIT rankers in my class who I perform as well as if not better.
My points are simple:
<p>I’m also open to messages if anybody wants further evidence, information on the basis of what I said.</p>
<p>"I’ll admit that I’m having some trouble parsing this one. English isn’t my native language "</p>
<p>I am sure you understand perfectly well what I said. </p>
<p>I am suggesting that one claiming MIT is superior to IIT will only to find out that when they get to MIT, they are being taught by professors/TAs who graduated from IIT. Would that be disappointing?</p>
<p>To name one.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.csail.mit.edu/user/723[/url]”>http://www.csail.mit.edu/user/723</a></p>
<p>"Anant Agarwal is the President of edX, a worldwide, online learning initiative of MIT and Harvard University, and a professor in MIT’s Electrical Engineering and Computer Science department… Agarwal holds a Ph.D. from Stanford and a bachelor’s from the Indian Institute of Technology, Madras. "</p>
<p>“MIT: Smullin Prize for teaching (2005)”</p>
<p>
Why this, why this bitterness dd-?</p>
<p>TeslaBoy- That was a great piece of advice.Made many things clear to me about IITs and US universities</p>
<p>ChubbyCheeks:</p>
<p>Haha, one, because it’s widely regarded as the best and two, because I went there a while ago and I got that impression from some of them. They’re not all rockstars at what they do, which is what I suspected.</p>
<p>But from what all you are saying, if suppose a student ends up in top 500 AIR in IIT and after a month in IIT apply as a transfer applicant, is his application considered a strong one?</p>
<p>That isn’t a strict criteria, no. I’m saying usually a 500 AIR applicant highly correlates to a smart student, and it makes your application stand out. Admission decisions are made on the basis of your awards and activities. It’s not as hard as you might think to tell the difference between someone who went to Kota for 2 years and got in and someone who was mad smart. Colleges prefer the latter, and these people stand a chance. </p>
<p>Transfer applications on the whole are extremely competitive, so a strong chance means little. An ex-IITian I know who wasn’t satisfied with the stream he chose at IIT transferred to MIT.</p>
<p>I agree 100% with what texaspg said. </p>
<p>Anant uncle FTW!!!</p>
<p>TeslaBoy, looks like they don’t keep you guys busy in Ithaca. Should consider transferring to Hyde Park. ;)</p>
<p>ciao</p>
<p>Don’t know how you came to that conclusion. They keep me plenty busy, don’t you worry.
I’ve never even heard of Hyde Park, forget transferring.</p>
<p>You also have MIT professors from the Australian National University. I’m not sure of your point here, but you’re not the only one who can dig out black swans and red herrings. IIT has produced several distinguished individuals because, for the longest time, that is where every promising student of an entire country would set their cross hairs on. But that was never for its supposed educational value, rather for its prestige (in the subcontinent at the very least). This is no longer true, and even if it were, it would not negate my points at all… Correlation does not imply causation.</p>
<p>
Not in the least!</p>
<p>Ohh come on now!! @everybody on this thread!! :p</p>
<p>I don’t know why people are randomly coming on to this thread and flinging hatred at others/other institutions!!</p>
<p>This is the way I see it:-</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Be it IIT, MIT, UCB, Cornell, Caltech etc. - They all are more than capable of setting you up for life!! All these universities have distinguished Alumni who are at the helm of their fields!! :)</p></li>
<li><p>The major difference in IIT vs. MIT,UCB,NUS,etc is the path which both these ‘type’ of universities follow!!</p></li>
</ol>
<p>IITs have a no-nonsense approach. Only studies, not much scope for research, no scope for inter-disciplinary studies. On the other hand, cost of attending is way way way lower than any other top university and you are guaranteed to be set up for a successful life(unless you’re from the new IITs - but even then, you get the IIT stamp!!)</p>
<p>MIT,NUS,Cornell etc have a more practical approach. Lot of scope for research, interdisciplinary studies, etc. It’s the more “enjoyable” path. In the end, even these set you up for a successful life ahead!!</p>
<p>Now question is - what kind of path would you like to take??</p>
<p>Obviously, the likes of @jak321,TeslaBoy - would say that the answer is a no-brainer!!</p>
<p>But before you embark on that train of thought - think of the many people whose sole love in life is say 'Computer Science" and nothing else - he/she is not interested in sports, not interested in theater ,etc. Such applicants are plenty in India & in the world. But you won’t find many on CC as again it is a waste of time for them!! Not only would they be misfits at Cornell, NUS, etc. ; It is also highly unlikely they would be accepted there!! Even though they are GENIUSES!!</p>
<p>Personally I too would close my eyes and choose Cornell,etc on any day of the year!! 
But that doesn’t mean the IITs are bad!! :D</p>
<p>Hopefully this settles the argument!! :p</p>
<p>I have friends who take a break from IIT stuff with school studies:::::::
Oh and the only other thing they do well is crack lame jokes:;; US education may not suit these guys right??</p>
<p>I don’t know why all of you have a very misconstrued view of the US admission system. Not everything is about ECs and activities. Many people here absolute geniuses, and it is undeniable that they are far more into Computer Science and only Computer Science than most or an IITians I’ve ever met. I’ve met people here who have designed their own processor when they were in high school, people who’ve won Intel awards, International Informatics, and people who develop for <a href=“https://www.leapmotion.com/[/url]”>https://www.leapmotion.com/</a> (Leap Motion) and the like. They are at the greatest American colleges by virtue of their genius not because they’re interested in anything else. They are not misfits here at all - they are well respected legends. There are students who have mastered Randomized Algorithms and Lambda Calculus and interned at Google only one year into college. They do not care much for anything else.</p>
<p>And I don’t know what you mean by more “enjoyable” path? Are you kidding me? If you’re trying to say it’s a walk in the park, it’s not. A large portion my friends in the IIT only do a bunch of rattabaazi a week or two before their exams. The work here for any half decent stream is monumental. Just because we have big clean dorms and great food doesn’t make it a walk in the park. A bunch of IITians here for their PhD at least at Cornell struggle with their classes just as much as anybody else.</p>
<p>I know this is a huge problem in India, but all of you seem to think the US education system is some sort of joke. It’s an easy walk in the park. That’s not true. Truth is, it’s flexible, so it can be as hard or as easy as you want it to be. There are some people taking Graduate level courses in their first 2 years and some people who’d rather take part in a bunch of extra-curriculars and not care about these things. It’s insulting when people come with some sort of idealistic approach without ever having studied at these colleges.</p>
<p>“Correlation does not imply causation.”</p>
<p>But badmouthing of IITs goes a longways?</p>
<p>^
Not at all. All of these are great schools. But you said that “one would get into MIT, and find out that their professors went to IIT” - and your point is? 99% of the faculty members at MIT did not go to IIT, and even if they did, how would that matter?</p>
<p>As I said before, the IITs are definitely good, but MIT is undoubtedly better, and that’s only to be expected, given the time when they were founded. (why do so many of these threads pop up anyways?) All you have to do is look at their admissions process - one looks at all aspects of the applicant, while the other uses a test that’s not even that difficult.</p>
<p>@Teslaboy - Ohh come on - don’t misrepresent things!! By enjoyable I meant the flexibility - you get to manage what you want to do. Is there a “Study abroad” at IITs? Are there clubs of various sorts at IITs? Is there practical learning at IITs?? The answer is a big NO(there are a few clubs but nothing significant). That is what I mean when I say more “enjoyable” - you seem to be the one having a problem at understanding things</p>
<p>I have no misconceptions of the difficulty of study in the US, at least at the top universities!! I know it’s not easy and no one should think it to be so - after all the adcoms don’t take a look at our GPA/Scores for fun do they? They want to see if we can handle the workload!!
As you yourself mentioned
[Quote]
Truth is, it’s flexible, so it can be as hard or as easy as you want it to be. There are some people taking Graduate level courses in their first 2 years and some people who’d rather take part in a bunch of extra-curriculars and not care about these things.
[Quote/]
</p>
<p>^ You get to choose what you want to do!</p>
<p>And
</p>
<p>^ Would you say that IITians struggle more than the average college student?? I guess not. No one is telling that IITians are the “BEST”. They are as good as any other.</p>
<p>I wasn’t sure what you were trying to say. I did say “If you’re trying to say it’s a walk in the park”.</p>
<p>
Well, the scene is completely different when it comes to a PhD. By the nature of the PhD, everyone struggles with it. <a href=“https://www.quora.com/Graduate-School/What-are-the-main-differences-between-a-Masters-and-a-PhD-in-computer-science/answer/Vijay-Chidambaram[/url]”>https://www.quora.com/Graduate-School/What-are-the-main-differences-between-a-Masters-and-a-PhD-in-computer-science/answer/Vijay-Chidambaram</a> Is a great read about PhDs. The IITians are no special here. Everybody in any CS PhD program at least are mad smart.</p>
<p>And of course, the IITians are good are what they do. I’m saying that it is not a direct cause of their going to IIT that has made them so but more so the fact they were incredibly smart to begin with. What I am saying is, for any given year, if you were to put the top 100 IIT rankers in a foreign university, they will, in the long run, fare better than if you had put them in IIT. It is a claim that has hard to back with data, but it something many IITians themselves believe is true. In fact, a large fraction of “successful” IITians did their Masters/PhD elsewhere yet we attribute their success to their IITian-ness.</p>
<p>@Texaspg,</p>
<p>Yes I take mapletree’s stance on this. I am not badmouthing the quality. There are a lot of smart IITians, but it is not the IIT that makes them this way.</p>
<p>
I endorse this stance. Provided you can afford it (though good FA may negate this) if you really want to learn, go to the US. Or IISc Bangalore if you’re very keen on India (that is, if you’re in it more for the sciences/math etc.).</p>
<p>
I wouldn’t quite call it “badmouthing”, but giving advice to one who solicited it :D</p>
<p>“What I am saying is, for any given year, if you were to put the top 100 IIT rankers in a foreign university, they will, in the long run, fare better than if you had put them in IIT.”</p>
<p>All of them? Your general thoughts are well taken, but TeslayBoy are we being pretty authoritative here?</p>
<p>It of course depends on the foreign university but let’s assume we are talking about Cornell-plus-plus-minus-minus. The thing is that the “fare better” is defined in terms of, US perspective. If you look at some of the knowledge “created” from the Eastern block you would see that it is different. Diversity of knowledge does imply that there are alternate paths to Goddess Saraswati, and yes many of us have memorized the periodic table (at least till the d-block). so live and let live as rishav17 has said more than once.</p>
<p>@codeboy: IITs don’t use PCM as a yardstick for success in CS because they want to; it is simply that there are so many applicants and one has to use some ‘quantitative’ means that can go up in the court as “fair”. If IIT were to use the opaque US admission scheme, there would be all hell loose on the courts. (BTW, opaque != bad). You already see English indirectly included in JEE admission starting this year (Courtesy the 20 percentile rule in the boards). You might soon see IIT admitting students period, not admitting students to disciplines perhaps. As an aside many nations (other than the US) do use some sort of qualifying test to admit their citizens to college.</p>
<p>To all others since IITB is pushed in the subject thread – (as opposed to the generic IIT)</p>
<p>. IITB does allow minors (and vanilla majors) so you can do a bit of both. Not as flexible as Cornell (I assume?) but it is a beginning.</p>
<p>. @rishav IITB has tons of clubs. Too many. It’s just not called clubs formally. You might find several IITBians acing at literally competitions hosted at LSR, and Xaviers (although this number might be coming down). IITB swimmers have made it to the world university swimming meets.</p>
<p>. @Rishav IITBians can study abroad (e.g. Rice). </p>
<p>. @teslaboy – while money is a virtue, there might be some virtue in producing high quality at low cost. Arguably engineering is just that :)</p>
<p>Having said all this, I am not taking any sides. I think the IITs have a long way to go, IITB definitely included – and that will largely be a function of the students getting in, so we are all included :)</p>