<p>She seemed like a nice, warm person to me, as well. But there’s such a thing as too nice. Even if a rapist admitted their crime, and even if the assaulter is sweet and charming and kind to animals, they assaulted someone and that should mean expulsion.</p>
<p>I’m no fan of tabloids like Jezebel, but all it does is confirm my strong conviction that criminal sexual behavior has ZERO business being adjudicated by colleges. Those poor girls they have three choices: call the police AND tell the college, tell the college you want them to figure it out or do nothing. Then when you have a college that is gentle and doesn’t pressure woman which is a major complaint women have with the police, the college gets crucified either by the press and accuser at some future point or if they take a hard line later by the kid whose due rights were trampled on minimum. No one wins…what is so hard to understand about that with regard to colleges and when most people are asking why the heck were the police not involved. I will never understand why the college didn’t call the police at UVa EVEN IF the woman didn’t want them to. At a minimum perhaps the police would have gotten some evidence or witnesses to come forward and give testimony. The accuser apparently didn’t WANT to go through that and let 2 years go by. Hopefully in Virginia limitations on reporting the crime has not runout - but now there will be scant evidence other than her story. And even Jezebel is saying that many woman often don’t want to get the accused in trouble. So then what do they want? It’s a hot mess. </p>
<p>Momofthree…
There is an unedited video with Eramo you can watch and listen to with your own eyes and ears.</p>
<p>Jezebel is saying? No. Eramo said…</p>
<p>If you were told by your child that they were gang raped six months ago, what would you think? Now imagine you are a perfect stranger, in charge of tens of thousands of students and employees, and many more alumni. If you were told by a student that they were gang raped six months ago, what would you think?</p>
<p>What do we expect to be happening here? Do we expect the accused to be expelled before a trial of any sort? Or their degrees rescinded?</p>
<p>And do we take someone’s word if they are guilty or not, or do we try them? The case of Etan Patz’s murder involves just that, the only evidence they have is a confession by the accused. The judge is trying to determine should he keep the confession on record or not.</p>
<p>This is such a loaded issue, because it is rape we assume her story is 100% true and cannot be false. Yet what can the university administration do?</p>
<p>Can there be a policy put in place at all universities to force this to be adjudicated fairly?</p>
<p>I was just thinking about spearing in football resulting in a penalty. You are not allowed to spear, that is, use your helmet to tackle an opponent in their midriff, because it is YOU who may become paralyzed. They are punishing the possible victim. Do schools have to punish victims who don’t report crimes? Do we put those who attempt suicide in jail?</p>
<p>Is it possible to completely understand waiting six months to report a heinous crime, way after the accused would have a chance to defend themselves, and not understand that the accused have rights too?</p>
<p>I also hate to say it, but gang rape = multiple rapes by multiple people plus clearly there was violent non-sexual assault as well. It is not one case of rape, it is many rapes and violent assaults, with intent to seriously injure or kill. It is a sad reflection of our state of mental health support that the victim did not feel the need to report the case immediately, and seek medical attention (I would have been freaked I would end up sterile if I didn’t get medical treatment immediately, based on the description!).</p>
<p>I find it sickening by the way, to think that UVA should throw out an <em>accused</em> rapist. Wow.</p>
<p>Rhandco, UVA is not throwing out people who admit they raped.</p>
<p>No but as I was skimming that jezebel site I came across a really interesting quote from a UVa student who did go through the process and it’s rather illuminating and what this survivor said about her experience. it’s interesting to me because UVa did give the women a choice, let them take the lead, but we don’t hear much if UVa does a good job of counseling and helping people recover and helping woman make decisions feels to me a higher priority from educational institutions. I’ve not seen anything negative about Ms. Eramco from women who have used her counsel. it feels to me like she should not be scapegoated.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p><a href=“'Law and Justice Aren't the Same': Interview With a UVA Rape Survivor”>http://jezebel.com/law-and-justice-arent-the-same-interview-with-a-uva-ra-1662629605</a></p>
<p>No, the emphasis needs first to be on sending a message to the students that when you do this sort of thing there are swift and dire consequences. You lose your right to be a member of a community when you commit an assault of this nature upon a woman. That quote above is like the CEO of Microsoft telling women not to ask for a raise and just trust the system - what a crock of ****. I feel like we are back in the 1800’s. That Eramo woman should lose her job. She does to represent women in any way, shape or form. </p>
<p>momofthreeboys, interesting link. </p>
<p>It’s an interview with a woman who was raped at UVa by a frat member, with other frat members’ connivance. She thought the UVa Title IX trial of her attacker was unfair, she did not have good representation, she was asked questions that were invasive and improper, and the punishment of her attacker was too lax. She was asked “Had I ever cheated on a boyfriend? Had I ever had sex with multiple people at the same time? How many sexual partners?” She was represented by an undergraduate, while her attacker was represented by a law student.</p>
<p>She thinks her rapist should have been expelled. He was not. As far as I can tell, the other frat members who aided her rapist received no punishment.</p>
<p>I think it’s important to note that her attacker was found guilty and was suspended for the duration of time she was in college. I think it’s also important to note that she did go to the police. It’s a refreshing article, she’s obviously a very strong woman and a recovering alcoholic. Her beef in this case was also procedural flaws. The time frame spans the time before and after DOE mandates if my recall is correct. </p>
<p>He wasn’t found guilty of “sexual assault.” He was only found guilty of “sexual misconduct.” As far as I can determine, the Title IX board thought that plying a young woman with vodka until she was unconscious and then “having sex” with her while she was unconscious wasn’t sexual assault. Apparently, in her telling of the verdict, they concluded her rapist didn’t mean to hurt her: he didn’t notice that she was unconscious after she had already been drinking and then he fed her four two six double vodka drinks and a beer. So that’s totally not rape.</p>
<p>^^Yes makes sense to me that some colleges would label it misconduct - fits with their honor code system. Sexual assault is generally viewed as criminal activity and the interviewee pursued the criminal system. it’s a bit difficult to use criminal terms in a non-criminal setting without legal implications so sexual misconduct would be a good label. My guess is quite a few colleges and unis use that term for their internal systems. Very few would ever use the word “rape” again because that has process, procedures and legal implications. Again, I think that is that fine gray line between colleges and universities and the criminal legal system. </p>
<p>Most risk management education (whether for businesses and I’m sure for colleges) will use the term sexual misconduct because the business is not judging criminal behavior, they are ‘judging’ misconduct of whatever codes or rules the organization has in place for employees (or students in the case of colleges and universities). They are told they can use the word “rape” but it should refer/index the searcher to sexual assault or sexual misconduct. </p>
<p>That’s incorrect. They could have found the guy guilty of sexual assault-- that was a charge available to them. But they did not.</p>
<p>I can see where it would be very useful for the institution to have somebody like Eramo to console and support the woman who has been raped. It would make the victim feel more comfortable and calm, and perhaps soften her anger, thus lulling her into an agreeable state in which she will not feel all mean and litigious. </p>
<p>[Here’s</a> one way to get it right.](<a href=“http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/11/can-this-police-department-help-end-campus-rape.html]Here’s”>The Tiny Police Department in Southern Oregon That Plans to End Campus Rape)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Note the first sentence: students don’t take their reports of non-stranger sexual assault to the police, because the police don’t even investigate non-stranger sexual assaults.</p>
<p>Instead of telling the rape victims to report their assaults to the police, <em>first</em> tell the police to start investigating non-stranger rapes when they are reported.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Arguments about standards of proof are really at the margins of the whole discussion in terms of effectiveness at catching and punishing rapists. University administrations largely seem to have the same callous disregard of rape accusations that police departments do (and are probably far less skilled at investigating and judging the evidence than police and courts are), so it is unrealistic to expect then to be all that more effective at punishing actual rapists (and even if they do get it right, the maximum penalty is far short of the prison term that an actual rapist deserves).</p>
<p>You could be right, ucbalumnus. I started this discussion believing that it could make sense for a victim to report to the university instead of, or in addition to, the police because the victim was afraid that the evidence against her attacker, while clear and convincing, didn’t reach the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt. </p>
<p>I thought that at least the victim could get her attacker booted out of school, even if she couldn’t put him behind bars where he belongs. But now, seeing how UVa gives a slap on the wrist even to people who admit to their crimes, I’m not so sure. UVa pretends they care about victims, but really they care about hushing everything up. </p>
<p>What really needs to happen is a combination of things:</p>
<ul>
<li>Police need to take rape seriously with respect to investigations.</li>
<li>Victims need to report rapes promptly.</li>
<li>Bystanders and others need to be aware of situations when a potential rape is likely to occur. Preventing a crime, or at least reporting a crime in progress so that police can catch the suspect in the act, is preferable to the crime occurring and no one remembering enough under a hangover to give accurate testimony about the crime or suspect.</li>
<li>Students in general need to be careful with alcohol. Being drunk makes it more likely that one will be a crime victim, won’t (as a victim or witness) remember enough to accurately report a crime, and won’t (as a bystander or witness) have the proper judgement needed to take action to prevent a crime or report a crime in progress (fear of being caught underage drinking may also deter some bystanders or witnesses from reporting crimes).</li>
</ul>
<p><a href=“'Law and Justice Aren't the Same': Interview With a UVA Rape Survivor”>http://jezebel.com/law-and-justice-arent-the-same-interview-with-a-uva-ra-1662629605</a></p>
<p>“The whole school venerates Thomas Jefferson, the man who said all men are created equal but also owned slaves.”</p>
<p>Not only that, but did Sally Hemings really have the choice of whether or not to have sex with TJ?</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/20/thomas-jefferson-the-face-of-a-rapist/”>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/20/thomas-jefferson-the-face-of-a-rapist/</a></p>
<p>ucbalumnus, I would add
- Universities need to take allegations of sexual assault at least as seriously as allegations of academic cheating, stealing, and vandalism. </p>
<p>Both the universities and law enforcement are failing to properly investigate the reports they do get, and failing to punish (and banish) the rapists. They both need to improve. </p>
<p>That jezebel article/interview (law and justice) is incredibly illuminating in so many ways. She’s a fantastic young woman. </p>