<p>Marie1234, we don’t know that. We do know she worked with a lifeguard and she took an anthropology class. I think the lifeguard was a member of the frat. The anthropology student may have been also. </p>
<p>I think the police can figure it out from there. Will they have Jackie 's cooperation? I am optimistic. :)</p>
<p>One of the things that Police Chief Longo stressed in the Board of Visitors meeting that was live streamed today was the importance of prompt reporting, even if you decide not to press charges. Both so that there will be a record (and physical evidence as every minute counts in an investigation) and to prevent it from happening to someone else. He is committed to working with the university to address reporting issues. A couple of other people on the BOV (one a physician) also stressed the need to seek medical attention because of the potential health risks involved.</p>
<p>yes, and also, it is important for police to learn how to talk to rape survivors and to pursue actual criminal investigations. What I am really hoping is going to happen, more than anything, is that we will now begin to question how these police are investigating rape, why they have been so ineffective in these investigations and what can be done to improve their results, particularly given what we know happens when women DO report promptly, even with evidence of injury and DNA. </p>
<p>honestly, I’m with Lisak, the truth is that the real issue here is the lack of criminal investigation.</p>
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<p>Yes, I really think I would have known. It was just an intimate setting. I knew everyone. Most of the girls that were around were people’s GFs. If we saw a drunk girl being led away–which was kind of tough since most of the rooms were quads–we would have stepped in. Never saw it, never saw it attempted. In addition to that, in all the time I spent there–including living there a couple of summers–I never witnessed a party like the ones described by the UVa students. Never a huge bash, with drunks staggering down the streets, ids being checked, “stair guards,” etc. For one thing, the official drinking age was 18. For another, we are not talking about rapey guys. I didn’t like all of them, there were a few guys I thought were sexist jerks, but in general, they prided themselves on being nice guys, and they were. </p>
<p>I would not have been interested in having a BF or spending time at a house like the ones described at UVa. Another factor: I was near the end of my college career then, not a freshman. I was, in fact, very anti-frat until I met these people.</p>
<p>My somewhat flip remark was prompted by irritation at yet another blanket statement. Of course I would talk to my D about the subject, and I would tell her what I experienced, which was positive, and what other people have experienced, which was negative. I’d talk to her about being drunk and vulnerable, about being roofied, about being pressured into sex before she was ready, and a host of other things. I’d tell her to watch her step in such situations, to go with dependable friends, and so on. And I would hope that my D had enough self-respect that she wouldn’t subject herself to being looked over like a piece of meat to get in anywhere, whether it be a frat party or a nightclub in NYC.</p>
<p>I’ve not read the whole thread yet, so may be repeating…I would hope that colleges are at least taking the simple step to discuss these issues and the ‘insider’ tips on how to be safe, and how to help others stay safe, and to take it seriously that ‘no’ or ‘stop’ mean stop. immediately. Yes, as parents, we should also give this advice, but not all of us know all of the correct advice to give, and sometimes, advice from others gets more attention than more parental advice. </p>
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<p>yes. I just wanted to give you a chance to pass along some of your more nuanced wisdom. I didn’t really think you were anything but annoyed. </p>
<p>shoboemom: I think this may be difficult for parents unfamiliar with greek organizations. I was in a sorority and dated fraternity guys in high school and college. One of my sons is a fraternity guy. My grandfathers, father, uncles, brothers: all fraternity guys.</p>
<p>I tell young women I know:</p>
<p>1) Never drink at a house except from a single serving container you saw opened.</p>
<p>2) Do not ever leave your drink unattended.</p>
<p>3) Do not ever go upstairs.</p>
<p>4) Take a friend with you to the bathroom.</p>
<p>5) Do not ever have sex at a fraternity house. Take your partner someplace where you have control of the environment.</p>
<p>After reading these threads, I am thinking of adding:</p>
<p>6) Don’t go to a frat party till after Thanksgiving.</p>
<p>At that point I have to think whether I want to advise: If you want to date a fraternity guy, date him away from the house for a while before you ever go to any event at the house.</p>
<p>Maybe someone else has additional advice?</p>
<p>I advised my daughters to date fraternity men away from the house. I see no reason or benefit to having a sexual relationship in a fraternity house, anyway. I told them that as well. </p>
<p>Dating entails being away from the house. Going out for coffee, ice cream, pizza, going to the movies, attending a campus event, biking, walking. </p>
<p>But for some guys, the frat is their equivalent of their dorm room. When I dated my H, he was an RA and had a single, so we hung out there. But if he’d lived in the frat, I suppose we would have hung out there. Honestly it was just more of a dorm that had parties. Not some den of iniquity. </p>
<p>Doesn’t dating involve being invited to parties at the house? Just like in the Rolling Stone article?</p>
<p>adding: PG - I absolutely respect your opinion. I don’t think all frats are dens of iniquity. But it would be foolish imho not to treat them as such until one knows the lay of the land. As poetgrl has pointed out repeatedly. I think shoboemom has an important question. What advice do those who have some knowledge about fraternities give? Basically, safe rather than sorry is my advice.</p>
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Is it difficult to access old phone records? I keep all bills. The alleged rape happened 2012 so if her parents keep bills they can look at the month’s bill which lists voice transactions for her number—date, time, number, origin, destination.</p>
<p>From the RS article:
LE should interview her employers and co-employees. She needed to wear a bathing suit as a lifeguard and jump into the pool. The article doesn’t say exactly when she went back to work but after 2 weeks, her back should have a number of cuts that would be noticeable to people around the pool. Personally, I think jumping into a chlorinated pool must have hurt since it’s been only 2 weeks since the incident. Someone also must have helped put some Neosporin on her back. </p>
<p>Dream on…I would be surprised if she’s willing to mount that kind of prosecution unless she hired a lawyer for herself. But it will be interesting to see what kind of effort the police put into this. </p>
<p>"Marie1234, we don’t know that. We do know she worked with a lifeguard and she took an anthropology class. I think the lifeguard was a member of the frat. The anthropology student may have been also.</p>
<p>I think the police can figure it out from there. Will they have Jackie 's cooperation? I am optimistic."</p>
<p>You have at least 9 alleged eye witnesses and/or perps. Some of them are still at UVA. Even without the victim’s cooperation, these guys should be easy to find and interrogate. I’m sure their names are already circulating around on Facebook and Twitter. If the victim’s allegations are at all true, these guys are already huddling with their criminal lawyers. Who will tell them that the first one to flip gets the best deal.</p>
<p>Bros before H__s has its limits.</p>
<p>PG. Your daughter went to an all girls school and that’s a good choice too. My husband was in a fraternity. </p>
<p>Quit acting like this is ridiculous. I know you like to take a stance, but it’s a stupid stance and really beneath your acumen. </p>
<p>I love how someone must have helped put neosporin on her back. No. I doubt Jackie was able to let anybody touch her for a good long time. I hope she can now, but who knows? </p>
<p>@poetgirl said, “There’s a reason I told my daughters to be careful. I told them to be careful about a LOT of things, and not just fraternity members. Also, dorm rooms, making sure somebody had met her date and knew who she was with, etc… common sense around strangers. But, freshman girls don’t “get” that these are strangers.”</p>
<p>EXACTLY – Bravo! Kids going off to college are all desperate to connect and make friends in their new environment … they bond quickly with anyone who seems comfortable/to share a common interest. But <em>real</em> friendships in which you know and trust the character of your friends takes time. They don’t get that. That makes “Jackie’s” decision to go upstairs alone with her date at the party a huge error in judgement only 4 weeks into the school year. It also partly explains why “Jackie’s” friends weren’t acting much like real friends when push came to shove.</p>
<p>So I’ve been reminding DS, who is a freshman, that I’m glad he’s found people he likes to hang out with, but he’s still in the “learning” phase with these friends, figuring out who is a good friend, vs. someone who is just fun but not reliable or trustworthy. </p>
<p>The safety guidelines proposed above for girls sound like good common sense to me, and many of them are good for both girls and guys, really, in an environment in which they are really are “strangers”; the problem is getting the kids to believe that they are common sense and not just old parents over-reacting. While the RS article is brutal and graphic and horrible, I think it does help to break down that <eyeroll> response…</eyeroll></p>
<h1>493 if you are talking about Pizza’s posts, I think she was just saying that sometimes posters paint in broad strokes. I, too, think there are some really good frats (and sororities) and there are plenty of college kids that have great college experiences. I think she was also saying that every single person - male and female - has to have some personal accountability and I do tend to agree with that for males and for females. But sometimes these threads take these strange turns where posters are painting with broad strokes - at least that’s what i took away from Pizza’s post about the dorm room and being alone with someone you know in a dorm room. That’s a huge difference from going to a frat house and a huge crush with people drinking themselves silly then going to a room alone with a guy you may or may not know well. Now someone is going to take that one sentence out of my post and say I’m shaming and blaming…that’s the kind of thing that happens. I try hard to step away for a few hours or a day until the thread reaches an equilibrium again.</h1>
<p>I am surprised by how many kids listen to their parents. Many kids want to get away from their parents when they go off to school. </p>
<p>I am also surprised by how many parents know what their kids did or are doing in college.</p>
<p>I am not judging. I am surprised.</p>
<p>I knew everything my oldest was doing. She called all the time to talk it through.</p>
<p>Youngest who does have a fraternity man as a boyfriend maybe followed my advice, maybe not. I’m guessing she did because while oldest called me, youngest called her, and we are really on the same page. The fraternity boy she is involved with couldn’t be a better young man, and she did date him away from the house her first year. (Most formals are held elsewhere for both her house and his.) </p>
<p>He doesn’t live in the house this year, since he’s a junior and lives with friends.</p>
<p>But, he’s not from a rapey house, anyway, one of the nicer ones, and there are nice houses. Still, as she said, “The bathrooms in a fraternity house just aren’t my deal. I would never spend the night there.” End of thought.</p>
<p>Look, I’m not anti fraternity in the slightest. I am anti saying there aren’t really bad frats. And they ARE frats, those ones, imho.</p>
<p>Edited to add: My oldest is engaged to be married to lacrosse player she met in college. I mean, it’s not like my daughters avoided the risk pool, they just were smart about the way they dated these guys. </p>
<p>My 3 are different in terms of how much that share with me. My youngest shares everything almost daily which was a huge surprise…sometimes more than i want to know. #2 never tells me anything and #1 shares in a filtered sort of way. But I have been told by many a girl that we did a good "job’ with the boys…whatever that means to young women these days. They don’t put the toilet seats down and all three can be real slobby and #3’s room is smelly from his lacrosse gear (although now it’s at college so small blessing) so I want to assume the women were referencing their character.</p>