<p>I just finished my freshman year at Michigan and, according to the ACT's methodology, should have been prepared for college. Well, I wasn't... my rural public school had only one AP course by the time I graduated... falling from 5 AP courses when I was a high school freshman. They decided to offer many "dual credit" courses in conjunction with a local junior college. I was surprised when my dual credit Calculus teacher (who previously taught the AP Calc course) told us not to bother with the AP Calc exam because we wouldn't be covering sufficient material to receive higher than a 2. You would think an actual college course would be at least as demanding as an AP course. In addition, they gave away grades like candy.</p>
<p>I had to work my tail off to keep up with my friends who went to private schools or wealthy suburban schools. They knew how to study, how to write and how to efficiently use their time. Even as a HS Valedictorian with a good standardized test score, I was playing catch up from day one. I feel like I've made up about 85% of the education deficit after one year of college.</p>
<p>I believe that far less than 25% of high schools prepare students for a truly demanding course load. However, so many colleges and universities are also giving away grades like candy... so our universities a churning out tons of graduates who will lack some essential skills even when they graduate. Of course, there are some students who will succeed despite the circumstances... mostly those who participate in honors programs at the university level.</p>
<p>I'm just glad I had the opportunity to receive a "wake-up call."</p>
<p>I think that it definitely has a lot to do with the amount of effort kids are willing to put in during high school. I remember arriving at college (just finished my first year) and being surprised at the number of papers I was just expected to write, and know how to write. I was glad that I had paid attention every year when our teachers repeated how to write good essays, etc, because there was obviously none of that in college. Even in my honors/AP classes many kids were still unable to do this without a teacher walking them through it, so I really wondered how they would be faring, let alone kids in "college prep" classes. </p>
<p>I also think I was better prepared from having taken real college classes over the summer as well as at night during my senior year. AP classes really helped me prepare to do well in those classes, taken one at a time, but I can't even imagine being thrust into college life just based on my high school course work. The problem is that only kids in AP/honors classes are encouraged to do things like taking college classes over the summer, so those are the only kids really getting prepared to do full time college work.</p>
<p>This thread has triggered several random thoughts which I hope I can organize into something coherent, as I'm not sure that my studies for my BA in English from UCLA have any lingering effect after all these many years . My first thought was that my understanding of "college prep" was always "college prerequisites", the actual classes required to be considered for admission. How well they prepare a student varies greatly and depends on several factors, including the individual teachers within the school. If you believe that kids will rise to the level of expectations for them, obviously requiring less work or giving out grades like candy to inflate a gpa does them no favors. My old hs did a study, which I think is unique, in which kids who were "phased" or "streamed" at just below the college prep level at hs admission were tracked for several years after they and their families agreed to them being treated as having achieved the "college prep" level altho' they hadn't. Every one of these kids went on to attend college, with the most supportive parents having the highest achieving kids, and the very top kids were the ones whose parents actually opened their homes for group study sessions, matching their encouraging words with behavior.
Many other previously mentioned issues also come into play on this subject, such as learning effective time management and study skills before you go to university and realizing that a poorer preparation from your hs MAY make attending a "reach" school a less attractive option depending on what you are willing to do to catch up. If there is any inkling of a discrepancy between a class grade and an ap score, it seems to me that it would be silly not to find out before your final college decision. For an overall view of what is happening in kids and education today, I have found Endangered Minds by Jane Healy quite thought provoking, even though it was written a while ago. If you are aware that your school's classes are not rigorous, I agree that a full time job would not be a bad idea as that kind of time requirement is not far off the requirements to do adequately at a top university.</p>
<p>I'm not really surprised. RE: the "asked to color a poster", I remember doing that kind of artwork type assignments in regular "college-prep" english in HS - I once had to make a paper hat of some kind with quotes on it :rolleyes:</p>
<p>I chose then to go into AP English and my grades paradoxically went up, since there were fewer meaningless busy-work assignments that really served no purpose college-prep-wise.</p>
<p>And in case anyone is wondering, I have never been asked to color anything in college :)</p>
<p>Does anyone wonder about the effects of tv? When my son was little, I noticed how fast-paced tv was by watching him react to it. So I stopped having it on for the most part because I wanted him to see things at a more normal, thoughtful pace. I used to read him lots of books instead and when he started reading himself, it was like a universe opening up to him. </p>
<p>I do believe that expectations--not pushing, but believing a child can and will do well--play a big role.</p>
<p>"College Prep" courses in my school are a joke. I always wondered about the ill-fitting name. Students aiming for top schools generally stick with Honors and APs. I only know of a few "smart" kids who stuck with CP courses just to get that 4.0 unweighted (the brightest of these kids is going to Northeastern in MA). Our AP courses are decent, I guess, but generally depend on the academic department. For example, our science department sucks horribly. Thus our AP Chem teacher last year didn't really teach us anything, resulting in one 5, and just a handful of 4s... On the other hand, our school aced the AP US test last year...</p>
<p>I wonder how much of it is that they aren't prepared to live on their own, care for their own needs on a daily basis AND handle a more rigorous academic environment. No one there to make sure they go to bed or even get up for that matter.....eat well.....no teachers contacting parents if there is a problem. </p>
<p>Not saying the academics at the h.s. arent being dumbed down. Just think there are a lot of things going on when you go off to college. I think H.S. need to teach basic skills better reading analysis, writing workshops, keyboarding, study skills and us parents need to back off a bit and let them take care of more of this stuff on their own.....instead of micro managing....</p>
<p>The interesting thing to me is that this was an ACT study, meaning that I assume both public & private schools were included. As acquainted as I am with the low expectations in most publics (my area, anyway), I am surprised that, when privates are factored in, the percentage is still so low. I expected to see somewhere between 1/5 and 1/4 of publicly schooled students being ready. (Make that about 1/10 in my state, but this is a nat'l study) As for privates, even the most undemanding privates in my area really do insist on covering basic prep for college, including writing, science & math skills, & essential literacy -- to a level at least acceptable for public 4-yr college work. Then when you add the really rigorous privates, where admissions standards practically require you to be ready for college at h.s. entrance, the 1/4 figure is rather shocking. It means that the publics, nationally, are even worse than I imagined.</p>
<p>Growing up with 2 educators as parents- I had always believed that education was a shared responsibility. When my twins entered the education system I expected this wonderful teamwork mentality. I was disappointed of course because it is rare to find a teacher that truly realizes their awesome responsibility and opportunity. (I guess, they are human as well)</p>
<p>I realized sometime in middle school, that if my children were not receiving proper instruction, it was my job to make sure they got it. Not helping them find a way to learn the material etc. would only hurt them. It continues to this day in hs- they were to make a documentary that counted as 1/2 thier grade. They never watched any documentaries in class, and never discussed how to make a good one. I had to encourage them (strongly)to do this research on their own. They in turn received the only 2 A's. I think the teacher was wrong...and lazy but in the end it was a great learning experience for them despite that.</p>
<p>We must teach our kids that when something is lacking....it is their responsibility to find a way to fill that void. We cannot count on others to always do their job, the world doesn't owe us anything. Not even at high priced prep schools.</p>
<p>I think momof2 has it right. kids are just not challeneged enough and that lack of challenge starts early, in middle school, and kids pay for it by the time college comes. i've always beleived that most kids, and especially black and Latino kids, are generally undereappreciated and underestimated as far as schooling goes--Mr. Bush's soft bigotry of low expectations. yes, sa few kids will alwas be low-achievers for whatever reason, and on the other end, most willl not be academic superstars who go to Harvard at 16. But the vast majority are capable of doing more complex and sophisticated work than they are getting in HS. and yes, teacher quality is of the essence in that regard. academic challenge is not just for the gifted, the talented, the affluent, the kids who can talk their way into restricted high-level courses. it HAS to be for everybody. i'm not surprised that so many so-called college prep course are failing kids. I'm just disappointed that its taken so long for this to become an issue people are finally taking seriously.</p>
<p>Agreed. D#2's honors Eng teacher (11th grade) gave no paper or essay assignments; district supervisor is aware and said it's OK. AP US history teacher had kids take notes on reading assignments for homework, instead of writing papers based on original source documents. Supervisor again made aware and says it's OK as long as the average grade on the AP test stays above a 4. This is a case where a school is failing to prepare kids for college.</p>
<p>The focus has shifted from preparing students to do college level work to having a transcript that will support admission to a top pvt college. Thus, class with AP designations give middle school level assignments. (NY_mom - - at least your dist supt cares about the AP scores - - which means that students have met some objective standard . )</p>
<p>With the rush to AP classes, parents and students should also be aware that even a score of 4/5 on the AP exam is no substitute for the full semester colleges course. Friends who are sci and math profs at top 20 LACs explained that one can miss fully 50% of the questions on an AP exam and still earn a score of 3 - - which is often sufficient to be awarded college credit. </p>
<p>They advised that D take AP classes/exams to demostrate she was capable of handling a rigorous courseload, or to meet distrib reqs - - but not to take APs as substitute for foundation math/sci courses if she intended to do advance course work. As a result. D opted for Ap stat instead of AP calc, since calc is foundation for her intended major (architect/physics/engineer).</p>
<p>This info is no surprise to me. Going to college is not the same as going to highschool. There are non academic issues that come into play as well, and most importantly the ability to schedule, study, juggle commitments. I see many kids who bomb out at college for reasons other than academic deficiencies.</p>
<p>I know a woman who teaches at UMass-- she and I work in the same place-- and we had a long talk about how unprepared kids are for college work, and how the school has a system in place to get their writing skills up to speed. It's really unfortunate that colleges have to do that.
My honors english class is nothing like some of the stories you guys mentioned, but it's bizarre how little creative writing we've done this year-- very sporadic poetry and maybe two other creative assignments, tops.</p>
<p>I'm not entirely sure what 'college level work' is supposed to mean, though. I mostly saw a shift in the way classes were taught and assignments/tests were dealt with, not necessarily so much in the actual level/difficulty of the work. Do I do college level work now? I don't know...I just follow the assignment guidelines like always and I don't ever think anything I write is particularly spectacular, yet I still get As on most of my papers.</p>
<p>In my school, though, I would say that most of the students who actually go to schools that aren't just crappy local 'grade 13' state colleges actually ARE pretty well prepared...it's just that this makes up probably about 10% of the graduating class, all the people that have been in the advanced/AP classes. Beneath that we have the 'college prep' track for those people who look forward to a 4-year party following graduation, and then the 'general' track, and then the basic skills sorts of classes. </p>
<p>I took college prep English my senior year because I couldn't/didn't want to take AP and there weren't any other options, and I felt like I had regressed about 4 years. I don't think we ever wrote any essays....we certainly did not read any novels. The teacher actually kept taking me aside and asking me what I was doing in a class so far beneath my level...yet a lot of people in the class still struggled with pretty much everything. Some of them went to college and honestly I think the problem there is not that something was wrong with the class to not adequately prepare them, but that they just don't care about academics at all and really don't belong in college to begin with. </p>
<p>I've actually met a few people at my college that are like that as well...here because the world has deemed that they need a degree, not here because they actually want to be here (and frequently just plain not here). Had to do a group project with some of them once...tons of fun...group never met, nobody bothered to do any work, class should have been an easy A but it wasn't...they didn't care as long as they just passed. Maybe the problem is more with the "everybody MUST go to college" mentality.</p>
<p>My main gripe with high school courses is that they are not taught like college courses. Any AP/Honors course should, in my opinion, be taught exactly as a college course would be. This means that going over homework would not take place in class, but would take place in optional recitation sessions. Homework should be handed out in weekly problem sets, and shouldn't be busywork. Unfortunately, most High Schools measure course credits by the number of hours you sit in a classroom, not how much work you do, or how hard the material to master is. High School should serve as a means to prepare students for college, not for a way to help remedial students stay in class and graduate. The main focus of all High Schools, in my opinion, should not have anything to do with holding students' hands and attempting to make students graduate, but should be on preapring students for college. The style of High School should closely mirror that of college.</p>