<p>What, we expect people to actually learn something in high school?
/bitterness</p>
<p>I had never written a real paper until I switched to a lab school my sophomore year. My conception of a paper consisted of the five-paragraph essay, if that tells you anything. I can't imagine going to college with <em>that</em> as my preparation. (This was in the highest track, mind you, and my English class, from what I gathered, was better than the other sections that year.)</p>
<p>In my opinion, most public high schools are more about surviving with as much of your sanity in tact as possible, rather than about learning anything. There was a point in time when I had thought that high school wouldn't be as worthless as all the other grades. Turns out, it was worse. </p>
<p>That said, there are notable exceptions. I, of course, have a personal bias towards math/science lab schools.</p>
<p>My eighth grade daughter just completed her first research paper. Teacher required a minimum of five pages text, three sources, ten cited quotations, proper formating, etc.</p>
<p>My older daughter's AP literature classes required at least one 4 - 8 page essay monthly, numnerous in-class writing assignments, plus a 15 - 20 page research paper. And they read 10 -12 novels, some of which she is reading again in college.</p>
<p>And these type of education is just from a very ordinary urban school district. Granted eighth grade daughter is in a magnet program. Older daughter was in traditional high school, but chose honors/AP classes.</p>
<p>My point is that students can choose to take classes that prepare them well for college. Many students at my daughter's school wouldn't take the AP Literature class because teacher was known for rigor and stinginess with high grades. My daughter is prouder of her B in AP Literature in high school than than the fact that she has received As in every English, composition, and literature class in college</p>
<p>Unfortunately, this carries over into AP classes as well, and I think a lot of the time it mostly depends on the teacher. For example, we wrote frequently and analytically in AP World History last year. On the other hand, in AP US History, we've watched documentaries and outlined the textbook -- very few essays, very few meaningful projects. In fact, the only real projects we've done included an Acrostic Poem assignment -- i.e., take the word PILGRIM and make up one sentence for each letter. This shocked me. As juniors in high school, I would think that we'd be asked to be more analytical. Unfortunately, as a result, none of us felt as prepared for the exam as we did last year, and I'd be surprised to see as many 5's as we received on the AP World test. That's disappointing.</p>
<p>You're right about AP...a very mixed bag, and not by any means a gold standard. The IB is somewhat better. The Times is right. In fact, most high school graduates outside of those admitted to the top twenty five or so colleges are woefully unprepared for anything which passes as an independent intellectual life. We were babied along in high school. Additionally, cheating is absolutely rife at every level.</p>
<p>marlene, you say the "point is that students can choose to take classes that prepare them well for college." This is simply not true. Many schools don't offer AP classes or they are not up to the same level you described. My rural high school had one AP class in English Literature and the average score was a 2 on the AP test. About 12 of the 14 kids in the class were in the "gifted" program since elementary school.</p>
<p>I just completed my freshman year at the Univ. of Michigan and I can tell you that one group of students was far better prepared than another group... generally, those who went to private or wealthy suburban schools were better prepared than students from rural and inner city schools. They weren't necessarily smarter, just better prepared. You can make up the education gap, but you start out behind on day one. Of course, some of us performed well because we worked very hard and, on the flip side, some well prepared students couldn't handle their newfound freedoms.</p>
<p>Marelene, others have already said it but it bears repeating: at many schools, there are no options for taking classes that prepare the student for college. This is part of the tragedy that comprises American education. Someone once said that if another nation imposed this system of education upon us it would be regarded as an act of war. </p>
<p>We went through all sorts of contortions to get the best public education for our D. To get her into the "right" middle school, I moved to a different office for an employee-related school permit...when she was only three years old. For many years, we rented in very high priced areas instead of buying in more moderate areas...all because of school issues. All the good schools in our area--Manhattan Beach, Palos Verdes, parts of Torrance, Beverly Hills, Santa Monica, Calabasas--are in very affluent areas. If you can't afford to live in those areas by one means or another, you're out of educational luck (and if you can't afford those areas then there's no way you can afford private schools).</p>
<p>A very good student in a mediocre school is going to start out behind in terms of college prep.</p>
<p>Honestly, though, there are plenty of students, bright or otherwise, who will never have that opportunity. Does that mean they don't deserve an education which will prepare them sufficiently for college?</p>
<p>Alhambra, there are a lot more factors than intelligence that go into deciding who gets scholarships to private schools. Even if there weren't, there simply aren't enough spaces at private schools for all the students who are capable of more than the American school system's lowest-common-denominator education.</p>
<p>Because it worked this way for me = it will work for everybody. Check. </p>
<p>Al, I hope you're not majoring in logic. </p>
<p>Besides, "private school" is not synonymous with "good school." U/Michigan, cited earlier in the thread, along with UCLA, U/Virginia, U/North Carolina-CH, and another good half dozen public universities are better than dozens of private colleges.</p>
<p>Speaking as one whose D got some merit aid at private school.</p>
<p>Yep no private schools at the high school level where I live - they all stop at 8th grade. The nearest one is 100 miles away. My D is at a State Math/Science school which is residential. But they only accept @ 80 a year and you have to live there so it is a very limited option and few kids get accepted or even want to because of the residential aspect. I have no doubt she is very prepared for college - but I would much prefer for her to have stayed at home which she would have if she had felt challenged at the local HS.</p>
<p>SCM, I'm with you...they leave fast enough, early enough, without sending them to residential high school. Kudos to you and your D for being able to do that...I would have felt impossibly boxed by your apparent choices.</p>
<p>TheDad - if it had been my choice she would not have gone there. It was totally her choice and decision and we really hoped until the last moment that she would change her mind. As she wanted it so much and was accepted we did not take that choice away from her. On top of us not liking that she has lived away from home it is a very stressful school - way too stressful for HS in my opinion. Our local HS is not that bad. The bright kids just don't need to study much even in AP classes so when they get to college it is a shock to them. She certainly has learned to study and work hard but I wish she had continued with the 'normal' HS experience including band, her sport etc.(no ECs at her school).</p>
<p>OK, I agree, if the opportunities aren't there, students miss out.</p>
<p>But, often students do not take advantage of the opportunities available. Unfortunately, anti-intellectualism is present in both our high schools and our colleges. Often the students enthused about learning are chided by their peers. At best they are teased for "kissing up" and worst they are shunned. </p>
<p>And when I talk about being enthused about learning, I don't mean having a straight A report card. I mean be excited about reading a novel or learning a new science concept and vocalizing your excitment. Many bright young people allow themselves to be excited about a sports team, the new movie, the social scene at school, but hold back when it comes to education. It's just not cool.</p>
<p>When we as a society value education, are children will sense that value. And that's when they will be excited about learning.... which would do wonders for college preparation.</p>
<p>It is so hard to be able to assess any curriculum without having some kind of objective national standards - and I'm not talking about some baseline No Child Left Behind" tests. Not having some kind of national standards makes every parent have to look out for their own kid, to understand if they are being challenged, working as hard as they should. How possible is that, really? Many schools seem to have to teach to the lowest common denominator in the class and they lose those kids who want to learn and work hard to boredom.</p>
<p>Our experience with the IB program was a very good one. My son went for the diploma so had to do an extended essay (and he was well prepared to do this in the summer between junior and senior year because so many of his IB classes required lengthy research papers). The curriculum isn't really prescribed, but the teachers know that at the end of one or two years of classes there is an extensive essay style test that needs to be taken for each class to get IB credit toward the diploma, and they gear their teaching so that the topics that may be on the test get covered. In order to have objective grading the tests are sent to other IB programs, which helps ensure that the high program standards are being maintained.</p>
<p>It seems like more and more IB programs are springing up - we have a number of public elementary schools adopting it in Minneapolis - and maybe it is a run at the "national standard" that could spur higher achievement.</p>
<p>Many of the kids we know who took a lot of IB classes are at challenging universities/colleges and have been able to start as sophomores (or at least get quite a bit of credit for classes) because of the rigor of the program.</p>
<p>i havnt started college yet but i already know from others that my public hs prepares students very well for college. we have a bunch of kids every year who go to ivies and other top schools but even the ones who dont still dont find college too much tougher. my brother did nothing in high school and when he got to college, he did his work and got good grades without any trouble. </p>
<p>its very hard to get into an AP/honors class in my school and they weed kids out who they know dont belong. for math, english, and sciences you have to have a 93 average to go from a regular class to a honors class for the next year and you have to have an 83 average for the year to stay in that honors class. there will always be kids in every school who perform way below expectations but even in regular classes here there are a lot of kids who are going to respectable schools and will be well prepared. it all dpends on the school and the studnets willingness to work</p>
<p>I think this is a very good point...a lot of times, schools stress (actually, almost all the time) getting prepared for types of examinations whether it be for state exams, nationwide exams, or city exams. It's crazy...education is supposed to be a worldly thing. You're supposed to teach because you love the subject and want to extend that love to students to keep forever. Few teachers do that...and that's understandable because of the curriculum STANDARDS that they have to follow in order not to get fired. It's stupid really, and I think if we were to have more flexibility to encourage learning in subjects through more air room and space to put our heads in real-life situations using our subject instead of putting them in dry textbooks, we can learn more. We will be more worldy and happy about what we learn. After being in high school, I can realize how school can be such a bore to some people. The things that we learn is not exciting because of the standards that we have to face!</p>
<p>Teachers can still meet those standards, all they need to do is be a little more creative and interactive with the class. I mean yes, there is some stuff that's going to be boring and always will be. But your English class doesn't have to be boring. Nor does your Social Studies class. All you need is a teacher good at moderating class discussion, who asks the right questions of his/her students in order to provoke thought and get them to analyze the texts.</p>
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<p>its very hard to get into an AP/honors class in my school and they weed kids out who they know dont belong. for math, english, and sciences you have to have a 93 average to go from a regular class to a honors class for the next year and you have to have an 83 average for the year to stay in that honors class. there will always be kids in every school who perform way below expectations but even in regular classes here there are a lot of kids who are going to respectable schools and will be well prepared. it all dpends on the school and the studnets willingness to work
Wow, your school has stringent requirements for AP classes (not saying that's a bad thing, just wow :))...in our school, as long as the student had a B in the previous AP or G/T class (Gifted/Talented), they are allowed to continue to the next course. Their teacher has to sign a sheet allowing them to do so, and the teach does recommend what class they should go into.</p>
<p>As for preparation for college...I am in a special program at my school called Humanities. It's a four year sequence, where your English and SS teachers work together (but teach separate classes) to educate you on the theme of that year. For example, our first year was World History; so we read texts from early periods and consequently, our history class followed the same route. (We also spend the periods on art and music a couple times per quarter). Some of these classes are AP, all of them are G/T (At our school, the level of coursework from least strenuous is Remedial, Regular, Honors, G/T, AP G/T). We bond as a class (we're the hum kids!), and each year the graduated Hum kids come back and visit the Hum IVs (senior Hums) and give their college experiences. All of them feel very well prepared, feel that our school overworked them, and that the writing experience they gained while in the Humanities program places them at an advantage over their peers. And these students are not going to "slouch" schools either: we're talking Ivies, MIT, and other prestigious universities/LACs.</p>
<p>From what I have heard, it seems that getting good writing skills and taking a maths class (even though it isn't required in senior year, but to keep yourself refreshed) are invaluable to success at college.</p>
<p>I'm not worried about my preparedness for college; I am much more worried about my drive to push through work (or lack thereof).</p>