NYT Acceptance Rates Chart - ED vs RD?

Parents Forum
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<p>The schools are “need blind” – so it doesn’t matter whether or not you check the box. They don’t pay attention to that.</p>

<p>However, as I noted above, ED exists largely because they want to lock in a significant proportion of full pay students. They do not focus on individual levels of need, but their selection criteria is designed to favor young people who are more likely to come from high-wealth backgrounds. The process of ED itself is largely effective in that respect, as it deters most students who would rely on financial aid from applying – especially students from middle class (median income) families who are not sure of how much aid they may be awarded.</p>

<p>But whether or not you check the box is irrelevant. When it comes to the college budgeting, they are looking at group trends, not individual financial circumstances. They have $x in financial aid dollars to allocate, and ideally they will be able to use 100% of that money to subsidize students, and not a penny more. </p>

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<p>The percentages never get “better”, but the percentages have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with your son’s individual likelihood of admission. </p>

<p>It is NOT a random process. There are all sorts of random factors that come into play, but each appllication is weighed on its own merits. </p>

<p>Essays and recommendation letters are VERY important. People on CC discount them, because obviously plenty of students get admitted in spite of mediocre essays or LOR’s – but the most important thing that your son can do at this point in the competitive admission process is to submit an application where his personality shines through and where he stands out in some way. That doesn’t have to be a “hook” --he just needs to have his application be memorable in some way. It could be an unusual hobby or interest that he decides to write about, or a quirky sense of humor reflected in his essays. There are no guarantees – a kid could submit a humorous essay that delights the admissions readers at one school and only annoys the readers at another. </p>

<p>But the point is: that’s pretty much all he’s got, other than whatever he can manage to do over the summer that might provide fodder for an essay. His GPA is what it is; he can retake SATs if he thinks they are weak, but if they are already strong – well, so are all the others being submitted. </p>

<p>No harm with SCEA because it isn’t binding-- the only downside would be if it prevented him from applying to a lesser-ranked college where he could be in the running for substantial merit money with an early application. But by the time the SCEA deadline rolls around, you would probably know if anything like that had materialized.</p>

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<p>Googling Christopher Avery should provide many links. An easy one is to read is
[The</a> Early Admissions Game: Joining the Elite: Christopher Avery, Andrew Fairbanks, Richard Zeckhauser: 9780674016200: Amazon.com: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Early-Admissions-Game-Joining-Elite/dp/0674016203]The”>http://www.amazon.com/Early-Admissions-Game-Joining-Elite/dp/0674016203)</p>

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<p>The rules are pretty simple.

  1. Apply ED if you have a clear first choice and money is no object.
  2. Never apply ED if you have financial need.
  3. Nearly always apply EA if you can. (Exception might be if you have rising grades and expect senior year grades to improve your chances, many schools however will defer you to regular round if you are on the cusp, so I think odds are still better to apply EA.)
  4. I hate SCEA, but if you love one of the SCEA schools use your EA card for them.</p>

<p>I can’t tell you what a relief it is to have an EA acceptance in your back pocket when you are waiting to hear from the rest of your list. It’s like an automatic safety school.</p>

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<p>Having gone through one admissions cycle first-hand, one thing to point out is that with the exception of Stanford, H, Y, & P deferred the decision on the bulk of their SCEA applicant pools. </p>

<p>Yes, everyone focuses on the early accept numbers (full of legacies, URMs, athletes, full-pays, and institutional needs). There were like less than 10 percent rejected by H, Y, P in the initial round - everyone else deferred to be looked at again later. So go in prepared to wait it out until the end. </p>

<p>This SCEA then can cost your student money from schools that would’ve awarded acceptances and merit if the application were early (northeastern, notre dame, fordham, boston college, UChicago, UMiami, URichmond, etc). </p>

<p>Stanford was the only school in the SCEA bunch that respectfully gave a clear verdict to early round applicants - admittance or rejection - limited percentage were deferred for later - the true pool of “we need to think this through.” Stanford was a fairer school to kids’ aspirations and helped more move on after December and not linger with false hopes.</p>

<p>My 2 cents is that H and Duke bulked up the early acceptance in their pools this year to send a message and beef up their applications numbers going forward. Stanford is THE school everyone is chasing out there - students and peer institutions.</p>

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<p>Before applying ED to any school, it is important to understand how financial aid is awarded. Using the FAFSA formula and CSS profile one can get a good idea of what their EFC is going to be. With that in mind, I believe applying ED can be very beneficial to a student with high financial need.</p>

<p>I also believe the ivy schools that admit students with high financial need are pretty careful to provide a manageable aid package. The school’s desire is to matriculate the student. Why would the college provide a package that is not manageable over the four years? A student dropping out does not serve the student or the school well. I have provided a link of the graduation rates because I think this would be telling of the student’s ability to pay for their education. </p>

<p>Agreed applying RD provides the ability to compare FA packages but applying RD significantly reduces the chance of acceptance to these schools which are the most generous meeting 100% of need.</p>

<p>[Ivy</a> League Graduation Rates Comparison Chart](<a href=“http://chart.univstats.com/2013/02/ivy-league-graduation-rate-comparison.html]Ivy”>http://chart.univstats.com/2013/02/ivy-league-graduation-rate-comparison.html)</p>

<p>Just my two cents.</p>

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<p>Looked up the book (The Early Admissions Game) on Amazon and found the reviews very informative. Even though the numbers are 10 years old, I think the premise is probably sound, so I might order the book. I’ll see if the library has it first. Thanks Xiggi!</p>

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<p>just checked, my public library does have the Avery book, thanks for the recommendation</p>

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<p>Seems like for DS it is worth the shot to try and apply SCEA to H or Y but probably not ED to Wharton. If a miracle were to occur and he got accepted, at least we would be able to compare the financials to other schools. It is his decision, but I will advise him of what I have learned. </p>

<p>Now I need to help him cull through his growing list of match and safety schools. It is getting out of control! I just don’t know how many schools he could possibly apply to and do an adequate job on the applications!</p>

<p>I have heard that it is the norm for kids at his school to send out 15 or more applications. Some are planning on doing 20 or more!</p>

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<p>It is interesting how opinions can vary, even among people who are well-educated in the subject. Using the same list, I will offer mine. Here we go!</p>

<p>My rules are pretty different

  1. Apply ED if you have a clear first choice and the finances are VERY clear
  2. Applying ED can be helpful for families with very high or very low EFC
  3. EA is a complete mixed bag. There are no benefits at MIT, and the benefits at schools such as Chicago, Georgetown, Caltech have all but disappeared. The days when Chicago HAD to accept more students in its EA round than they had spots are probably gone forever. EA appears to be a “why not application” but it also preclude one to look at the SCEA schools.
  4. SCEA is the most sensible deal that marries the benefits of an early application (bonus) without the ED apprehension (regardless of the correct or erroneous perception.)
  5. The world of ED versus EA is hardly homogeneous. One needs to learn about how the applications work at each target school. Percentages are one thing, but number of spots offered versus total admissions is more relevant. Case in point ED at Penn is hardly the same as it is at the neighbor Swarthmore or Brym Mawr. It was not that long ago that all-female schools admitted about everyone with a pulse and a checkbook in their ED round. Well, that is a bit of cheap shot, as the percent admitted was only 65 to 80 percent.
  6. Playing the ED/SCEA game judiciously is what separates many successes from the failures of rejection. Forgive the hyperbole! :)</p>
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<p>agree with xiggi on #1, as long as you are comfortable in not comparing packages. I have no doubt that a significant admissions benefit occurs for ED, and that admissions bump just may earn one a generous need-based aid package. OTOH, without that ED admissions bump, the student might not even be accepted in RD.</p>

<p>(Even the non-HYP Ivies have generous need-based packages – perhaps with the exception of Cornell.)</p>

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<p>Xiggi and bluebayou - your information and advice is much appreciated. As this is my first child to go through the process, I am learning every day. </p>

<p>I guess my assignment for this week is to check the number of spots versus total admissions at the three schools that are at the very top of his long list - Wharton, Harvard and Brown.</p>

<p>Yes, I know they are all super-reaches for everyone, but he has the stats and has visited all and has different reasons for loving each one. He knows that almost 95% of the people get turned away, but he wants to try. We support him 100%. Maybe his hard work and stellar stats will pay off?</p>

<p>We have decided that should a miracle occur and he gets accepted at one of these schools, we will find a way to pay for it. We have carefully taken into consideration the needs of everyone in the family and feel that this is the best route for us.</p>

<p>He just needs to decide which school is the “early bird”. Even though the odds of admittance are remote, I want him to have the best chance.</p>

<p>Back down to earth, he has his safeties in place and will finish visiting likely match schools over the summer. </p>

<p>S1 is the oldest child in our extended family. Everyone keeps remarking - “My how the college application process has changed! We had no idea!” </p>

<p>Thanks to everyone on CC who helps to make this a little easier for those of us going through it for the first time :).</p>

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<p>Let me offer another perspective:
If one is applying SCEA, chances are HUGE that an unhooked applicant will be rejected. The rejection comes in right before Christmas. The applicant has to work now on completing his application to other RD schools. At the time when his friends with similar stats are getting acceptances from EA schools, he has no college acceptance on hand.
Pretty depressing…</p>

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<p>Actually, kelowna,
The best course of action if applying SCEA is to have all the applications complete (not necessarily sent if you want to save on application fees) by December. If a student is rejected, at least he/she will not be starting or completing applications.</p>

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<p>^^True. It is the best course of action. Now, how many HS seniors will actually do it that way, is another story ;)</p>

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<p>Well, his plan is to start early and have everything ready to go by December 1. We’ll see if hat happens, but he is usually a very good time manager so I think he’ll get it done.
As for the disappointment, I think he understands the risks. We certainly have talked about it enough.
But it seems that the chances are will be much higher for H, Penn/W or Brown if he applies early so he’ll decide on one and take the chance.
Now, to help him figure out which one …</p>

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<p>Then start thinking strategically instead of just following the crowd. </p>

<p>For EA/ED, there are SOME students whose chances are dramatically improved with an early application, but also some who probably fare WORSE under that scenario. </p>

<p>I do think that people make the mistake of over-generalizing from statistics. The ED pool includes a significant fraction of students who would be accepted in any case, as well as students who would be rejected in any case. So ED benefits only a smaller proportion of the students – those who fit within the group of being competitive enough for admissions that they have a reasonable chance either ED or RD, but who are not so outstanding or distinctive that they can be confident of admission in the RD round.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that as far as overall admissions, ALL colleges which offer binding ED <em>admit</em> a greater raw number of students in the RD round – it’s just that a significant portion of RD admits opt to attend other schools, and the RD pool is larger overall. </p>

<p>The reason why some students may do better RD than ED is because every college is selecting students to fill a varied agenda. That is, they want to fill their classes with students who meet a variety of qualities, so that the end result gives them a class that meets their goals. The agenda that they are aiming for in ED round may vary from the agenda they are aiming for in the RD round. For example, ED is a really great time to lock in recruited athletes, especially at schools that are not able to offer athletic scholarships. If you don’t snag that quarterback by December, the coach can pretty much assume that he’s going somewhere else. (Though, I have to say, the one recruited athlete I know at Stanford already had his spot guaranteed before the first of September. Whether that was a formal letter of admissions or just a promise from a coach he felt he could rely on, I wouldn’t know).</p>

<p>On the other hand, there are a whole variety of agenda spots that may not become apparent or may be better filled in the RD round, when there is a larger pool of applicants to consider. That may be the case for someone who is outstanding in some particular area or demographic that is important to colleges but not the type of thing that they prioritize in the early stages.</p>

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<p>In trying to think of this strategically (and as objectively) as possible, I think that he has some very appealing talents that some top school will want. He is not an athlete though, so that will not help. Too bad they don’t recruit for martial arts :).</p>

<p>Is it plausible to think that with the high number of deferrals from Harvard and other schools this year, that he might get lucky and get two shots - Early and RD? </p>

<p>Assuming a deferral even happens, do deferrals go into the same “pile” as all of the other RD applications? Do they stand a better chance? Worse? Equal?</p>

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<p>In D2 case, Cornell hadn’t admitted anyone from her high school for 5+ years after they admitted 3 applicants one year and no one matriculated. D2’s stats would have made her a very competitive applicant in the RD pool, but we didn’t want her to be rejected like all other applicants before her. The applicants who were rejected by Cornell were admitted by other “higher ranking” schools. </p>

<p>Schools like Cornell and UPenn seem to fill very high percentage of their class through ED, so I don’t think those admitted applicants are necessary all hooked. By applying ED is the ultimate show of interest.</p>

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<p>At a school like Harvard, I would guess that deferrals in general fare somewhat worse in the RD round. That isn’t a matter of “chances” so much as circumstance. The deferred student has an early read from Harvard and knows that he didn’t wow the admissions committee. Unless he can somehow enhance the “wow” factor, it’s just as likely that the ad com will be equally unimpressed in the spring. In the meantime the doors have been flung open and a whole new batch of applicants are coming in. The one advantage the deferred applicant has is that he knows his initial application was not quite good enough to make the cut, so he has the opportunity to supplement it to improve it – whereas if he had applied RD in the first place he wouldn’t have that feedback. </p>

<p>At a someone less prestigious college, the situation might be different. Harvard knows that it can beat just about any college in the RD round – that is, it doesn’t lose very many RD admits to other colleges. That’s not so true at many other colleges, which might consider the knowledge that they were once the applicant’s first choice favorably.</p>

<p>If your son really wants to succeed in the college admissions process, he should get away from the group think mentality and develop his own preference list. A smart college applicant who was strong enough in martial arts to be brag worthy would know which colleges nationwide are likely to value that interest. A list like the one posted at [UCMAP:</a> Links](<a href=“http://www.ucmap.org/info/links.html]UCMAP:”>http://www.ucmap.org/info/links.html) would be useful. It doesn’t matter whether it is something the college recruits for – if they maintain a gym and a club sport, they need participants. They want students who will participate actively in campus life, and will fill a wide variety of roles on campus, whether it is kids who are likely to join the marching band, participate in theater, or be active in student government. So any strength that can be highlighted is valuable. </p>

<p>But that’s where a tip factor may be more valuable in the RD round than ED. In the ED round, it’s just not that important – but in the RD round they are going to be casting a wider net. Part of it is just luck – if there has been a glut of students with martial-arts backgrounds applying in one year, then one more applicant is not going to impress… but if there haven’t been many, then that might be what grabs the attention in the RD round.</p>

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<p>Oldfort, S1 is planning to apply RD to Cornell. It is the only Ivy he hasn’t visited and will get there this summer. Maybe it will move up on the list and become an ED consideration. Just to further complicate matters :).</p>

<p>The problem I see with ED Cornell and Penn is the lack of score choice and superscore.
Two kids from his high school made it to Wharton the last two years. One had single sitting 36 ACT. The other 2350 single sitting. S1 has great scores but they are not perfect and are over two sittings. I think this might be a disadvantage for Wharton with all of the superstar perfect scores that will apply ED. </p>

<p>Any thoughts?</p>