<p>Cornell is not part of the SUNY system. Four of the Cornell colleges are "contract." They receive funds from NYS to provide education considered to be valuable by the State. Tuition for NYS students is substantially reduced, but only for students within the contract colleges. The Life Sciences/Biology program is especially popular.</p>
<p>monydad: I will take your word for it. My kids have no interest in musical theater. It is bad enough that I have one interested in music.</p>
<p>Incidentally we seem to have derailed ontp a discussion of the SUNY system. The article from the OP was actually about private colleges attracting a growing number of OOS and making contributions to the economy.</p>
<p>edad, we may strayed from the NYT article but the discussion about the SUNY system certainly hit on an important topic that interests CC posters. With an operating budget of billions, the SUNY system has an impact on both the economy and it also brings in a significant amount of tax dollars - quite a few from OOS. There is also the significant cross-over between the public and private institutions of higher ed. in New York State - case in point is the connection between Cornell and SUNY. The SUNY system is highly decentralized and fragmented but it has carved out a niche that meshes and co-exists, rather than competes, with the other private institutions in the New York State. As far as I can tell, in New York State there is no crisis in terms of enrollment for either the public or private sectors. According to the Rockefeller Institute (btw, another part of SUNY), in terms of enrollment and "fiscal fitness" New York takes the lead and concerned politicians, businessmen, and administrators, who view the students getting their educations in New York in terms of an investment in human capital, want to keep it that way. Question is how to stem the brain drain and keep these young people, as Horace Greeley might have put it, from going south. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.nysstatistics.org/%5B/url%5D">http://www.nysstatistics.org/</a></p>
<p>The NYT article opens discussion and debate on the current, and future, situation of higher ed. in New York. SUNY is a part of that and so too are all the plans to revamp and improve the SUNY system. This is all particularly interesting in the context of the notion of FIRE and ICE mentioned in the article - and the focus on the need to capitalize on the intellectual, cultural, and educational resources at hand in upstate New York as engines of the economy.</p>
<p>edad: I'm not sure that Wikipedia the free on-line encyclopedia should be quoted as a primary source at this point, or thought of as such. I don't know what standards these people are using for content development. For example, from another CC thread it appears to me that current Cornell students are actually creating the text that appears in Wikepedia, as opposed to official sources. </p>
<p>The relationship between Cornell's contract colleges and SUNY has some nuance to it. For example, to take one actual official source, these Cornell contract colleges are listed on SUNY's website, in a link that was previously provided in this thread. Daily management and operation of these New York State colleges has clearly been delegated to Cornell. These contract colleges were established by act of the NYS legislature, who could presumably turn around and give the "contract" to some other school if it wanted to. As a consequence of their establishment New York State has representation on the Cornell Board of Directors. And NYS provides substantial funding. Whether that makes these colleges part of SUNY or not depends partly on context or perspective, it would seem.</p>
<p>I know two of my daughters' classmates from her private school are attending FIT in NYC which I think is still a SUNY school and very happy with it , the opportunities , internships. </p>
<p>Speaking of diversity , there is one SUNY campus that I saw that was extremely diverse and that is Buffalo ! A lot of internationals . Not to mention all the ethnic food stores and restuarants in that town , and all the theatre people .</p>
<p>But I just read that they are having proble, placing students in dorms ( overcrowded ?).</p>
<p>Easydoesitmom, according to the NYT article, Buffalo is one of the areas hardest hit by the youth "bright flight". According to the following article many young couples are moving to South Carolina and Florida where they find better jobs and living conditions because, in essence "New York is driving itself out of business". </p>
<p>The relationship between Cornell and SUNY is supposed to be a seamless partnership, association, or affiliation (Cornell administrators use all of these words to describe the symbiotic arrangement that falls under the neat rubric of a "contract college".) NYS students who apply to these programs at Cornell use the common app. and abide by Cornell-Ivy League standards but they are given a tuition break as NYS residents through the SUNY arrangement. SUNY is clearly involved in budget planning and other administrative areas. On the Cornell website it is difficult to find references to SUNY but they are there. In this regard, the SUNY system does not seem to benefit much from the Ivy brand name recognition of Cornell but it is certainly justified in listing these programs as part of the SUNY system.</p>
<p><a href="http://dpb.cornell.edu/F_CASA.htm%5B/url%5D">http://dpb.cornell.edu/F_CASA.htm</a></p>
<p>In contrast to the SUNY arrangement with Cornell, the ESF (Environmental Science and Forestry) at Syracuse is run by SUNY.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.esf.edu/catalog/intro.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.esf.edu/catalog/intro.htm</a></p>
<p>With regard to the economic development of New York State, SUNY also has a division that creates bridge programs to develop and foster New York's higher ed. academic resources in relation to the workforce -that includes employment, job retention and advancement. I would think that falls into the categories of both "FIRE" and "ICE".</p>
<p>asteriskea,
Maybe I've missed something here (quite likely!) but I'm trying to figure out your emphasis on the SUNY-Cornell relationship. It is such a tiny part of SUNY (fewer than 1.5% of SUNY students). It isn't even a very large part of Cornell (fewer than a third of Cornell's students it appears). Can you just explain how you think this impacts the overall quality of SUNY? Thanks.</p>
<p>Weenie, I do think the subject of SUNY's affiliation with Cornell is important, if for no other reason that it goes a long way to explain how the SUNY system works and just how many different ways SUNY funds are allocated throughout New York State. New York's public higher ed. system did not opt to create a flagship U and this also has to do with Cornell's own history as a land grant college. (btw, if the number of students in these programs are up to almost a third then that is it not at all insignificant). The programs are at Cornell but SUNY funding is involved. It is a symbiotic relation and Cornell recognizes the importance of SUNY's partnership in the development of public higher ed. options and job development throughout the State. In this context, I am simply addressing the fact that SUNY is a state-wide system and may indeed include the Cornell programs on its website as part of the SUNY system.</p>
<p>Thank you for your expanation. Maybe SUNY is, in fact, spread too thin. Or, conversely, maybe they should be doing MORE things like the Cornell arrangement. I don't know. I just know that for the average SUNY student, it no where near resembles a "Cornell experience."</p>
<p>Weenie, the "average" SUNY student wouldn't qualify for admission to Cornell.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that state-funded education must be addressed to meeting the needs of the students in the middle -- the ones who are neither financially or academically in the running for the sort of colleges that dominate discussion on this board. So the question really should be, how well do the SUNY's do in terms of providing a reasonably good college education to young people who were B and C students in high school? </p>
<p>Yes, it would be nice if SUNY ALSO could offer an elite, prestige level education to the top students coming out of NY high schools -- but if finances are tight, I wonder if thats really where the voters in NY would want their dollars spent. It would require a tremendous expenditure of resources to create a large research university that could compete with the private universities in NY -- Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Rochester, Syracuse -- not to mention the many excellent private LAC's.</p>
<p>So the most reasonable and best goal of SUNY might be to improve the quality of education given to those ordinary students -- but I'm not sure that would change the viewpoint of those who aspire to something more prestigious. In other words, expanding the library or hiring new profs at Binghamton isn't going to suddenly translate into a huge jump in prestige, and obviously no one wants the sort of improvement that depends on sharply increasing the amounts charged for tuition. And if the criticism of the SUNY's is that they lack diversity, you need to keep in mind that a push for increased diversity (such as active recruitment of low income students) -- may be at odds with efforts to increase public perception as to prestige or standing. </p>
<p>Again, as a Californian I see most of the SUNY's as roughly equivalent to our CSU system and our less-popular UC campuses, such as UC Riverside. If you are telling me that the SUNY's can't even match that level... then I would be very surprised and saddened.</p>
<p>"Weenie, the "average" SUNY student wouldn't qualify for admission to Cornell."</p>
<p>Well, I guess that was my point...</p>
<p>I am really not familiar with the California system, but just glancing at the CC rankings, do you see ANY SUNY schools in the same league as what is available for Calf. residents? Now, why do you think that is? </p>
<p>And don't you think it sort of stinks to be an "A" student in New York state, who maybe can't, or doesn't want to, afford a private school or who would like to attend a broader, more diverse school as the prestigious state univeristies tend to be? (And when I talk about diverse I don't just mean racially or ethnically - SUNY is unable to represent even any other states in any meaningful way whatsoever.)</p>
<p>Oh I don't know. I'm just disgusted with what this otherwise great state offers our college-bound kids.</p>
<p>In spite of some positive comments in this thread, I agree with weenie. SUNY schools are a real disappointment for any smart, academically oriented kid. </p>
<p>There have been some substantial increases in the college age kids in NY over the past 10 years. Enrollment has also increased in the SUNY system. Unfortunately the number of faculty has been reduced by 1200 due to budget restrictions. This year there has been some hope because about 1/3 of the lost positions might be restored. That does not meet the need but only reverses some of the damage. In spite of the increases in enrollment, the number of bachelors degrees has not increased over the past 10 years. I also like to look at the percentage of students who graduate and continue on into doctoral programs. Although doctoral education may interest only a few students, I believe those numbers help to reflect the "I" in Ice. The SUNY schools are notable poor in this regard. Stony Brook advertises its doctoral and research achievements. USNWR ranks SB around 100 for undergraduate education. When it comes to the percentage of graduates enrolling in doctoral programs, the ranking is about 250-300. Few of the SUNY schools do much better. In addition to funding, politics seems to hamper the SUNY system. SUNY seems unable to build any excellent schools because each of the 60 or so facilities needs to be supported for political reasons. Instead of trying to develop some excellent schools, SUNY has been trying to develop centers of excellence. That makes little sense to me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am really not familiar with the California system, but just glancing at the CC rankings, do you see ANY SUNY schools in the same league as what is available for Calf. residents?
[/quote]
Well, the only basis of comparison I've got is the US News rankings & stats, and so I picked 2 schools at random and here is how they came out:</p>
<p>**California: Humboldt State University<a href="chosen%20because%20that%20is%20where%20my%20son,%20the%20National%20Merit%20finalist,%20is%20now%20going%20-%20Humboldt%20is%20considered%20to%20be%20one%20of%20the%20better%20CSU's,%20and%20is%20often%20chosen%20by%20students%20who%20can%20get%20into%20UC%20but%20prefer%20a%20smaller%20college">/b</a>:</p>
<p>U.S. News ranking: UniversitiesMaster's (West), 37
Peer assessment score (5.0=highest): 2.9
Average freshman retention rate: 75%
Average graduation rate: 41%
Classes with under 20 students (2004): 34%
Classes with 50 or more students (2004): 9%
Student/faculty ratio (2004): 18/1
Percent of faculty who are full-time (2004): 81%
SAT/ACT 25th-75th percentile (2004): 940-1190
Acceptance rate (2004): 58%</p>
<p>**SUNY Stony Brook<a href="chosen%20because%20I%20know%20how%20to%20spell%20it">/b</a>:</p>
<p>U.S. News ranking: National Universities, 97
Peer assessment score (5.0=highest): 3.2
Average freshman retention rate: 86%
2004 graduation rate: 58%
Classes with under 20 students (2004): 36%
Classes with 50 or more students (2004): 23%
Student/faculty ratio (2004): 16/1
Percent of faculty who are full-time (2004): 86%
SAT/ACT 25th-75th percentile (2004): 1070-1280
Acceptance rate (2004): 49%</p>
<p>Looks like on all objective measures, Stony Brook wins. The only place where Humboldt fares better is that it doesn't have as many large classes - everything else - peer assessment, retention & graduation rate, student/faculty ratio, percentage of full time faculty, selectivity, SAT scores -- puts Stony Brook ahead.</p>
<p>SBU can be considered to be SUNY's big flagship university. A fair comparison would be UCLA or Berkeley versus Stony Brook. If you want to make a fair comparison with Humboldt then you should probably pick a more equivalent choice such as SUNY Cortland.</p>
<p>edad, how can you designate Stonybrook to be SUNY's flagship U, when SUNY does not have, nor pretends to have one? </p>
<p>The SUNY system as it stands right now is the largest comprehensive public system in the nation. It has extraordinary range and breadth state-wide and while it is extemely program oriented rather than institution oriented, these programs are aimed to offer the widest range of academic possibilities at low tuition rates to serve the needs of New York State. After all, it is SUNY's primary mission is to provide access to higher ed. throughout New York and it does just that. Can it do more? Of course. The "problem" here is just how to balance growth and quality. This is precisely why the alarm bells sounded by the NYTimes articles are significant and do affect SUNY since tax funds might be even tighter in the future. SUNY's next step in its "Rethinking SUNY" plan for 2005-2010 - when the demand for quality public is expected to increase is precisely what so many of you want - a plan to address the problems connected with academic excellence and enrollment management ("Mission, Market, and Quality"). This includes faculty development, the creation of new research facilities as well as improving graduation and retention rates, in order to strengthen the SUNY student profile. At Purchase, for example, a new emphasis will be placed on a "whole school" approach which no doubt will make this SUNY more selective. Times change, the needs of the state change, and no doubt so will SUNY - other public state systems are facing or face similar challenges, notably Wisconsin which does have an outstanding flagship U - Madison. Change, however, does not happen as quickly or efficiently as most everyone would like.</p>
<p>At the same time, it is important to remember that in many areas of New York, particularly those mentioned in the NYT article, SUNY is the major employer in those regions and, as such, is a major economic engine - that is the "ICE".</p>
<p>My point when I made the statement, "I am really not familiar with the California system, but just glancing at the CC rankings, do you see ANY SUNY schools in the same league as what is available for Calf. residents?" was, do you see any SUNY schools comparable to the TOP UC schools?</p>
<p>The major issue does involve the absense of excellent; i.e., flagship schools. The SUNY system is big and needs some quality institutions. This would meet the needs of our more able NYS students, help to bring in OOS students, enhance the overall reputation of the system and quite possibly benefit the entire system by setting some standards for excellence and best practices. Instead the SUNY system and politicians seem committed to trying to maintain schools in depressing snowbelt towns in the middle of nowhere.</p>
<p>edad, again - ouch - I hope you have not offended all those wonderful New Yorkers who live and want to study, and maybe even live "in the middle of nowhere". New York public interest does not simply cater to the wants of those who live in metro New York. SUNY suffers from the malaise that many other public systems throughout the country suffer from given the pressures and stresses in the college admissions world. Right now, SUNY's low tuition and strong programs do attract OOS as Calmom points out, and there is no absence of excellence in the SUNY system - you just have to know where to find it - as Marny pointed out. Students who have the academic drive will make the best of SUNY resources prestige or no prestige. Public institutions have to strike a balance between public needs and wants as well as peer prestige and public purpose. That strikes at the heart of public higher ed. systems in contrast to private, independent institutions. New York has its share of excellent private institutions - New York is the place to be, remember? Rankings and prestige do not tell the whole story. </p>
<p>"Saving the Soul of Public Research Universities"
<a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2006/07/14/burke%5B/url%5D">http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2006/07/14/burke</a></p>
<p>UAlbany is making an effort:</p>
<p><a href="http://cnse.albany.edu/%5B/url%5D">http://cnse.albany.edu/</a></p>
<p>The nano tech college will add value to UA. The area is attracting tech companies so the students may stay. UA also recruits heavily in China.</p>
<p>Depending on what employment a graduate is seeking, New York can be tough. Jobs in NYC pay higher, but the cost to live there is enormous. We rent to education majors from UA grad school. A few from Long Island are trying to stay here to teach since even though salary is higher on LI, there are fewer jobs and the cost of living is the equalizer. Florida public schools recruit heavily here at the education fair and offer jobs on the spot to applicants. Florida pays well and in some areas the cost of living is lower.</p>
<p>There was an article last spring RE: visits, applications and transfers to UA were up since the basketball team got national attention. (So the state cut aid and raised tuition...)</p>
<p>
That's ridiculous, since I posted originally that I saw the SUNY's as equivalent to the CSU's and the less popular UC campuses, like Riverside or Merced. You might as well ask how California compares to New York in terms of the number of Ivy League colleges -- obviously we already know that NY has 2 and Cal. has none.</p>
<p>Secondarily, the "top" UC Schools are very poor learning environments for undergrads -- many kids avoid them because of the large classes, difficulty in getting into required courses or desired majors, poor advising, etc. My d. was accepted to Berkeley but would have chosen Santa Barbara or Santa Cruz over Berkeley if she had ended up remaining in state. The prestige that a major research university gains does not necessarily extend to the quality of undergraduate education. </p>
<p>I'll compare SUNY's to CSU's because that's comparing apples to apples.</p>