<p>calmom:
I'm sorry, I am not trying to debate the merits of a small vs. big college. That is an entirely different topic.</p>
<p>And do you think that SBU, with a 17:1 student ratio and an emphasis on research, provides a great undergrad experience? Sorry, it is not known for its small classes and touchy-feely LAC-type environment. Before you make any more comparisons, I would suggest you make some visits and tour some of the SUNY schools and she for yourself what they are like.</p>
<p>the best SUNYs are Binghamton and Geneseo (latter is a college.)</p>
<p>I don't know edad. I compared it to Humboldt, where my son is going. I used the only objective criteria I knew of or had access to. All the numbers seemed to suggest that Stony Brook came out better than Humboldt. </p>
<p>My son is a national merit finalist. He started out at a pricey, top 50 LAC. He didn't finish there, and now he wants an affordable way to complete his education. He can't get into the UC system as a transfer from an out-of-state college, so he has chosen a CSU. He won't qualify for much financial aid now that he has been working and has some money saved up, so affordability is a big factor. </p>
<p>I figure if a CSU is good enough for my son, it ought to be good enough for just about anyone whose financial circumstances preclude a private education. The only exception would be someone with a very specific major in mind that is not offered via any CSU. </p>
<p>On paper Stony Brook looks better. I haven't been there, so I don't know. Then again, I haven't been to Humboldt either. </p>
<p>I do know that I have met and worked with some amazingly smart kids going to San Francisco State U; my son considered that but in the end just didn't want a commuter school. Here are the SF State numbers:
[quote]
U.S. News ranking: UniversitiesMaster's (West), 57
Peer assessment score (5.0=highest): 3.2
Average freshman retention rate: 77%
Average graduation rate: 41%
Classes with under 20 students (2004): 24%
Classes with 50 or more students (2004): 21%
Student/faculty ratio (2004): 19/1
Percent of faculty who are full-time (2004): 77%
SAT/ACT 25th-75th percentile (2004): 880-1140
Acceptance rate (2004): 67%
[/quote]
That is equivalent to Stony Brook for peer assessment; on everything else, Stony Brook comes out way ahead. </p>
<p>I still think that the SUNY's are a good value in the safety/match category. I'm sure they have the SAME financial issues that other public colleges have -- but I think they stand up well when you compare them to similar institutions. I think you want them to be something that they are not -- but New York differs from California simply because of the number of excellent private colleges NY has. Your real complaint is not with the SUNY's, which are doing a good job of providing an affordable education to average students -- but with the skyrocketing tuition costs at the private institutions. One reason that NY never developed a Berkeley-equivalent flagship is probably that there is no realistic way to compete with the private colleges. How is a state college going to lure top quality professors away from Columbia, NYU, Vassar, etc? What kind of salaries and perks are they going to pay? Do you want the same sort of public scandals about money/benefits given to faculty that we are seeing now in California?</p>
<p>Since Cloverdale told me how to spell the names of other, better, SUNYs, here are the US News ranking stats for those schools:
Geneseo:
[quote]
U.S. News ranking: UniversitiesMaster's (North), 12
Peer assessment score (5.0=highest): 3.6
Average freshman retention rate: 91%
Average graduation rate: 79%
Classes with under 20 students (2004): 29%
Classes with 50 or more students (2004): 8%
Student/faculty ratio (2004): 19/1
Percent of faculty who are full-time (2004): 89%
SAT/ACT 25th-75th percentile (2004): 1200-1340
Acceptance rate (2004): 44%
[/quote]
Binghamton:
[quote]
U.S. News ranking: National Universities, 74
Peer assessment score (5.0=highest): 3.1
Average freshman retention rate: 92%
Classes with under 20 students (2004): 40%
Classes with 50 or more students (2004): 16%
Student/faculty ratio (2004): 22/1
Percent of faculty who are full-time (2004): 88%
SAT/ACT 25th-75th percentile (2004): 1170-1340
Acceptance rate (2004): 44%
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The SUNYs have changed because these days the middle class and lower middle class gets ample financial aid for the privates if qualified. When I went to SUNY Albany the average SAT was MUCH higher than now, and you had to be a near-A student to get in. </p>
<p>Those days are gone. Most of the people I knew at Albany 30 years ago would never be there today because they would all have had scholarships to better schools. My kids are no better students than my friends and myself, yet they are at Brown and Vassar. </p>
<p>When I went to Albany it was harder to get in there than Barnard and NYU ...NYU was a joke. It is a different world. </p>
<p>You are looking at the quallity of student at SUNY, but it isn't SUNY that has changed --rather the opportunities available to these excellent but not rich students beyond SUNY's gates. There's also been a learning curve in admissions knowledge. People of similar type are more sophisticated in navigating admissions today.</p>
<p>This is probably progress.</p>
<p>And I might add, if NY had a SUNY equivalent to UCLA or Berkeley more of these excellent students might select SUNY but its hard to know which came first --attrition from SUNY or the lowering of standards. In my day, my friends with straight As and SATS in the 1400s (1500s in today's scoring) were all headed to Binghamton. Today these same kids would all be headed to Cornell or Yale or Wesleyan on need-based scholarship. That is why you don't find them at SUNY.</p>
<p>Somehow I don't see the great scholarships coming from the expensive privates. In fact the financial situation is bad for many downstate New York families. Costs of living are extremely high and hence salaries are high. Many of us don't have much left over but we earn to much for any significant need-based aid. Of course, many of the elites do not offer merit aid. </p>
<p>I do agree that the quality of the many of the SUNY's has declined and Binghamton is a good example. As Harpur College it was quite good and the State promised to continue to develop Bing as a quality LAC. Something happened. Bing grew into a small U but seems to have floundered. It is just a fairly good school in a real bad location that most students really do not want to attend.</p>
<p>I am talking, really, about the lower middle class --and you can earn $100K and still get need-based aid; you can earn more with two kids in college and get it. Aid does accrue to students at this income level when they are qualified --and thus they don't need the SUNYs. </p>
<p>Other privates in NY, Rochester for instance, are generous with merit aid --and few would choose Binghamton over that. For kids at a sufficient academic level, aid is available be it need-based, or at a slightly lesser but still excellent school, merit. </p>
<p>These knds of kids no longer need SUNY.</p>
<p>It's true about Harpur college --it was good once upon a time.</p>
<p><<somehow i="" don't="" see="" the="" great="" scholarships="" coming="" from="" expensive="" privates.="" in="" fact="" financial="" situation="" is="" bad="" for="" many="" downstate="" new="" york="" families.="" costs="" of="" living="" are="" extremely="" high="" and="" hence="" salaries="" high.="" us="" have="" much="" left="" over="" but="" we="" earn="" to="" any="" significant="" need-based="" aid.="" course,="" elites="" do="" not="" offer="" merit="">></somehow></p>
<p>edad, I agree with you.</p>
<p>edad, no doubt about it, downstate New Yorkers are caught between a rock and a hard place - squeezed by high salaries, high taxes, high cost of living, and intense peer pressure that certainly does include what college our children attend. This is part of how New York and New Yorkers have changed and it isn't unreasonable to want quality public alternatives in higher education to keep pace with our wants. Yet, it is impossible to understand the SUNY system without taking into account that there are 108 private colleges and universities in the state which are tremendous engines of the economy in New York - Massachussetts is the only state that has a higher number - and SUNY institutions have to co-exist with them and with CUNY. On top of that, SUNY's primary mission is to provide access to higher education and offer programs to benefit the needs of the state - however abstract that may sound - which, system-wide does not exactly put an emphasis on prestige or selectivity. But it is also does not mean that excellence doesn't exit in the SUNY system. As Calmom points out, SUNY stands up well compared to the California public system and perhaps others could chime in and show how it does in comparison with Ct. and New Jersey. Budget cuts or no budget cuts, SUNY will change to meet the needs of the state, and but any adjustment in mission (access) will affect selectivity and will, no doubt, lead to higher tuition. (Rock and a hard place, again). Much of the problem is that the SUNY system is so comprehensive and caters to so many "needs" that the image of mediocrity seems inevitable. Each SUNY institution has its own history and problems. Yet, even SUNY Purchase - which was created from scratch to attract the best and the brightest isn't immune. It is amazing just how much parents and students will put up with in the name of prestige - just look at how many private universities have huge classes, TA's in charge of sections etc.</p>
<p>Yet these New Yorkers with incomes of $200k+ DO manage to send their kids to elite private colleges and pay for it. They are not the ones I'm talking about. Such people could always afford it even if they felt stretched. </p>
<p>I am talking about the very smart lower middle to middle class kid (with income well under $100K in today's dollars) who previously would have wound up at SUNY. Those kids are no longer at SUNY --they do not have to be. They were the top layer, the cream --really the best and the brightest of SUNY 30 years ago. They defaulted there for lack of anything else even possible. Their wealthier counterparts (upper middle class) were never at SUNY, never. </p>
<p>The brightest of the bright who went to SUNY because they could afford it in past generations --today, they are not there in general. They have other options. Most of my friends from SUNY have their own children in elite privates --they are not sending the second generation back in droves. </p>
<p>edad, I am not talking about you folks making $200 K --I don't care how much you struggle in Scarsdale or Great Neck, your kids are still going to be paying customers going first class on this excursion to higher ed.</p>
<p>"They were the top layer, the cream --really the best and the brightest of SUNY 30 years ago. They defaulted there for lack of anything else even possible."</p>
<p>Very true. And those who could not "manage" to go to SUNY went to CUNY, which was free. The lucky ones went to SUNY back then.</p>
<p>It is the New Yorker making well under 200,000, but in the 100,000 range that is not able to afford the elite private, and is also not seeing a great financial aid package. I know people in this category attending Sunys today.</p>
<p>But Northeastmom --If those students are sufficiently high calibre they ARE getting merit aid at Rochester or comparable schools ie Brandeis. The ones at SUNY today are not the best of the best --they are siphoned off. Back when I went to SUNY, my friends were A students with high SAT scores and regents scholarships. I had some brilliant friends attend CUNY. They had no other options. Today --I promise you these kids would be at a top school on scholarship.</p>
<p>cloverdale, They will get merit $ if stats are high enough, but often it is not enough to overcome the amount of money the family has to come up with annually. I know a friend of mine has a D who was accepted to UR and is at Tulane. UR was still not doable for their family, and Tulane is a stretch, but they did do better financially at Tulane. The D did apply to mostly state schools (one instate, and the rest oos) b/c they thought that they would not be able to afford a private school.</p>
<p>I have another friend who has D who is an A student, but only got an 1150 on the old sat. She would not necessarily get money at the private schools, although she might based on gpa, but only applied to one private. She is at a SUNY. Their family probably earns well over 100,000, but less than 200,000. They have 2 other children in private parochial schools. They live very modestly (small old home in a middle class community, in the suburbs of NYC) and I know that they felt that they could afford not a private college. This is not a family who takes vacations to the tropics, or owns nice new cars. It is only in the last 3 years that the mother is back to work full time, as there is an age spread between all of the children, and she needed to complete her own schooling first (night school). They have debt from the lean years that they are paying off currently, while paying school tuitions.</p>
<p>If the young woman had higher SATs she would have had a scholarship someplace excellent. She is not a good example, because you do need the SATs to get those merit scholarships.</p>
<p>I speak from experience with my own kid. With my younger son we applied to just a few schools but with the older one: 19. That was out of inexperience and confusion over where he would be accepted. He had MANY merit offers come in such that SUNY was the more expensive option in all but one case where a SUNY offered him a full ride, based on merit. But my son had 1500 SATs and SAT-IIs averaging almost 800. SUNY was not his best financial option except in the one instance. Rochester gave him nearly a full-ride.</p>
<p>You will not find this kind of student at SUNY today no matter what the income level, but in my day you would have. And btw my son was not a straight A student, he had many Bs and he had only 3 AP courses. He was still accepted to Brown, Chicago, and other top schools. He is not an URM but a white kid from the burbs.</p>
<p>Also --the family you mentioned sends other kids to private schools? Well no wonder they can't afford college for the older one!</p>
<p>It is true that the students at our top SUNY university (Binghamton) are not what they used to be. When I attended there in the late 70's the atmosphere was very serious, very studious, no parties at all (much to my disappointment ;) ). Many of the kids were Jewish, with very high work ethics and educational expectations. My understanding is that is not the case today. I see the level of student getting into Binghamton now (kids from my area) and they are by no means top students.</p>
<p>Also, for everyone stressing over "downstate's economy" you have NO clue who is really hurting in New York State. We're dying up here!!! Upstate is dead on its feet. We are in big trouble, big trouble.</p>
<p>I have no idea what SUNY thinks its doing; my main point is that if you are a top student in New York state you simply don't have the very affordable, and very high quality options of many other states.</p>
<p>On a different note, imagine if SUNY had snagged NYU in 1948 (or whenever it was) when they were forming the SUNY system...</p>
<p>C7: I do know a girl who is at Oswego with very good numbers and APs with 5s across the board. Her parents wouldn't pay anything for college. Oswego was thrilled to get her. She spends her free time writing essays for $250 scholarships and being an RA.
Another girl and her dad met with a counselor at a SUNY and the counselor told the dad to take her somewhere else. She was too good for them. She's at Vandy.
My daughter is at NU in engineering. Complains it's "hard" and there's no grade inflation. I tell her if she wanted to be in the top of her class, she should have gone to SUNY.</p>
<p>Weren't the SUNY schools separate until about 20 years ago? How does "Regents for All" play into this?</p>
<p>I am one of the very few students who went to Binghamton as an OOS. My re-centered SAT was in the mid 1400's. I might not have been admitted if I had been an Instate student. There were lots of students who had higher SATs and were much smarter. Binghamton was popular with even very good students because of the low cost and because of the academics. Many aspects of Bing were not very attractive, even then: ugly campus, miserable weather, no sports, minimal social life and activities. The town of Binghamton was really bad, very economically depressed and there was no reason for a student to go into town. We went for the academics and tolerated the rest. There were plenty of students who did nothing but study. They complained because the library was not open Saturday night.</p>
<p>I don't see anything that has improved over the years. It does appear that the caliber of students and the academics has declined. The 21:1 student ratio is among the worse in the SUNY system. In addition I suspect the real ratio for undergrads is worse and the faculty concentrates on the graduate programs. I suspect Bing lost focus. It never grew into a big, powerful research university and the original goal of being a strong LAC was abandoned. Now Bing has students were are not very impressed with the academics and the rest of the negatives have not improved.</p>