NYT article: New York is the place to be

Parents Forum
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<p>Another NY private college that has not been mentioned: Vassar.</p>

<p>This year's accepted students:</p>

<p>49 US states, DC, Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands are represented, as well as students from 39 nations.</p>

<p>Top Ten States</p>

<p>New York
421</p>

<p>California
204</p>

<p>Massachusetts
135</p>

<p>New Jersey
133</p>

<p>Connecticut
92</p>

<p>Pennsylvania
85</p>

<p>Illinois
59</p>

<p>Maryland
51</p>

<p>Texas
44</p>

<p>Washington
31</p>

<p>39 nations represented, including: Argentina, Australia, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, China, Ecuador, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Honduras, Hong Kong, India, Indonesia, Jamaica, Kenya, Korea, Mexico, Moldova, Nepal, Nicaragua, Pakistan, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Romania, Russia, Singapore, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, United Kingdom, Vietnam, and Zimbabwe.</p>

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<p>Edad - whatever you could say about NY funding issues, the same could be said about California public schools -- so my comment about SUNY's being a good bargain for Californian's stand. It's not like things are all that rosy in-state -- I mean, when a university chancellor commits suicide by leaping out of a highrise, it's not a good sign. </p>

<p>And there is no California equivalent for the arts program at Purchase. My daughter graduated from a small public arts high school in Calif, and 4 kids this year are going to Purchase (out of 5 who were accepted). That is more than or equivalent to the enrollment at any single CSU or UC campus except Santa Cruz. </p>

<p>There is no point in comparing the SUNY arts programs to more elite schools - I know that some of these kids auditioned for NYU Tisch & Julliard, but they didn't get in. (Which is in no way to diminish their talent - it's a pretty high bar). Even if they had gotten accepted, finances could have been a problem -- like many other kids, my daughter thought NYU was her top choice but turned it down based on the financial aid award. Of course those schools have better, stronger programs -- but that's comparing apples to oranges. </p>

<p>Among the non-elite colleges which are crucial for college planning (i.e., schools where the odds of being admitted are high) -- SUNY Purchase is a well-regarded program and an excellent value. ($11K annual tuition for out-of-staters - compared to at least $27K annual tuition for most private colleges).</p>

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<p>Another interesting school in NYC is Marymount Manhattan. D's friend didn't get into Barnard or NYU and wanted to stay in NYC. So she is going to Marymount. I believe tuition is under $20,000. Not your typical college campus as buildings and dorms are scattered throughout upper east side. But for the independent adventurous kid this could be a school to check out. They also have a performing arts dept so it may be another school to look at if interested in studying in NYC and Tisch is out of reach.</p>

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<p>I am sorry if any students or parents were offended by my comments about the SUNY schools. I do believe NYS students are being short changed and the SUNY schools are overdue for some investment and improvements. </p>

<p>Sure, you can learn anywhere. It is also true that the SUNY schools have some famous alumni. Many famous and successful people have also come out of very poor inner city schools. That in no way should suggest that the quality of these schools is acceptable. Students and parents of SUNY students should speak up and agitate for needed improvements.</p>

25

<p>I totally agree with edad. </p>

<p>As SUNY Binghamton graduate I am doing all I can to keep my kids out of the SUNY system. I think it is a terribly funded system, although in my opinion that is not the worst thing about the SUNY system. </p>

<p>In my opinion the single worst thing about SUNY is its severe lack of diversity. The schools are jam packed with kids from the NYC/Long Island region and that is about it. Consequently many feel like high school - with too many kids all coming from the same high schools, even bringing all their same old friends. </p>

<p>Because most SUNY schools are not in "happenin' " metro regions the downstate kids tend to be very condescending about the cities they are in - and are pretty vocal about it. (Honestly, you'd think upstate NY is the only place in all of USA with bad weather.) Because of the very low prestige factor of SUNY many students attend as their absolute last choice; what kind of student body can this produce? Some SUNY schools have as few as 1% of their students from out of state. It is ridiculous. </p>

<p>I have no idea how one would ever fix SUNY. Some of it starts with fixing NY state's government (good luck with that one). I just know I'd rather have my own kids attend almost anybody else's state U over ours.</p>

26

<p>The grass is always greener.....</p>

<p>Personally, I think the UC system is way over-rated - I can't believe that anyone in their right mind would come in from out of state and pay the exorbitant out-of-state tuition to attend a college like UC Berkeley or UCLA as an undergraduate -- and I'm a UC grad myself. (Also came in from out of state, but back in my day the full cost for out of state tuition was significantly less the than in-state tuition is now). </p>

<p>At the same time I insisted that my own kids apply to UC's as financial safeties -- as troubled as the system now is, I still think it provides reasonable value for the money for in-state rates. After 2 years at an east coast elite college, my son will be finishing his education at a CSU -- not what he envisioned when he graduated from high school, but now that he has a few years' of work experience and is more grounded in reality - it's a terrific bargain. </p>

<p>From what I can see, the SUNY's are roughly equivalent to the CSU's in California -- they don't have the prestige of the UC system, but like the CSU's they may provide a more affordable alternative for kids like my son who are paying their own way, and a reasonably good education for the kind of kids who don't have the stats to get into prestige schools. The smaller campuses may also be a more supportive place to complete an education than the mega-sized UC campuses. </p>

<p>Of course it makes sense to want to see improvement in your own state's system, and it would be great if NY had a flagship U with the type of reputation that Berkeley or UVA or Michigan has -- but I think you also have to keep in mind that at least 80% of college bound students are not competitive for elite, top ranked colleges and universities. When you start comparing SUNY's against lower-ranked LAC's, and factor in cost -- I think the SUNYs are a good value. There are a lot of kids and parents who have disdain for the SUNYs in October who end up very happy that they had a SUNY on their list come April -- when the dreams of glory have been dashed, the bottom line is that it is a respectable college education. In other words -- they hold their own in the "safety" category.</p>

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<p>When you start comparing SUNY's against lower-ranked LAC's, and factor in cost -- I think the SUNYs are a good value. There are a lot of kids and parents who have disdain for the SUNYs in October who end up very happy that they had a SUNY on their list come April -- when the dreams of glory have been dashed, the bottom line is that it is a respectable college education. In other words -- they hold their own in the "safety" category.</p>

<p>Calmom, This is so true. They have even become financial safeties for some New Jersey (oos) students. In fact, I know a kid from NJ who was given a choice between Rutgers, Bing, and CUNYs and chose Bing. The reason for these schools was COA.</p>

28

<p>SUNYs are great schools cost wise and if one is looking for a particular degree that is offered... i.e. teaching, yielding a NYS license. However, there is indeed a lack of diversity and spirit in the SUNY system.</p>

29

<p>I think we can all agree to agree that the SUNY system is a good deal even though it does need improvement as well as an injection of spirit that will attract the kind of applicant pool we all would like to see in New York. Diversity is a problem but one that is shared by many other private colleges throughout New York as well. That in no way diminishes the positive aspects of the system - especially in the category of match and safety schools. I don't know about the upstate SUNYs but in the case of SUNY Purchase, apart from its strong programs in the arts and humanities, the continuing education program deserves mention because it adds to the diversity of the student body and provides a valuable educational resource for the community. Just how many colleges in New York outside of Manhattan and the metro region, apart from Vasaar, and perhaps Bard, have the strong brand recognition and prestige to draw those international and OOS students? Even Vassar had (way back in the dark ages, at least) an insular, deja vu-high school, suit-case school feel to it and, frankly, many students stuck it out primarily because of the prestige factor. We all expect much more these days, and as Weenie points out, we all want the college experience to be more than a re-run. I suspect that Vassar has changed - although I don't think that many students are inclined to stay in the Poughkeepsie area once they graduate. </p>

<p>The call to improve the SUNY system and keep on improving it, is more important than ever in light of the brain drain or bright flight, and subsequent dwindling tax base, noted in the NYT. The upstate areas north of Putnam and Rockland Counties - Buffalo, Binghamton, Syracuse - are the hardest hit. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.schneiderman.org/show.php?page=news&id=496&PHPSESSID=29c57ded66212e2e807b3995dabaa7d9%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.schneiderman.org/show.php?page=news&id=496&PHPSESSID=29c57ded66212e2e807b3995dabaa7d9&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>They are great colleges and universities throughout New York state and a great web site to help find them:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nycolleges.org/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nycolleges.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

30

<p>I have lived in both California and now New York, so I don't think I have some mistaken notion about the grass being greener. The SUNY system just doesn't have anything remotely near the level of UCLA or UC Berkeley. I would agree SUNY schools are a bargain at the safety level. In the Long Island area, the community colleges are an even better bargain and really seem to provide the education and support needed for more marginal students. It is too bad that community colleges are viewed as low status options. </p>

<p>Calmom, you seem to be basing a lot of conclusions on your impressions of Purchase. I really don't know much about performing arts education aside from music so you may be correct that Purchase is a good safety for some students. That is a limited perspective and really doesn't reflect the academics of the SUNY system.</p>

31

<p>edad, I know a family who agrees with you. Their S attended Hofstra rather than going to a SUNY. The mother told me that they would rather see their S attending Hofstra b/c she felt the school was better than any SUNY! </p>

<p>I am not so sure about that.</p>

32

<p>No doubt parents and students can easily find fault with SUNY precisely because the SUNY system does not boast a flagship U. The 64 "units" that make up the SUNY system cover almost too broad a range of academic programs - over 5,000 - at institutions, including private universities such as Cornell, located throughout the state. They do boast a multitude of hidden gem programs - and many threads on CC have already called attention to them. No matter how many improvements are made, and no matter how much money is injected into the system, there will always be critics of the public system - justified or unjustified. The SUNY schools can and does much more than cater to "marginal students" - it seems quite clear that in the context of New York higher ed options, SUNY's reputation of mediocrity and the label of "safety" needs an overhaul.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.suny.edu/student/campuses_map.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.suny.edu/student/campuses_map.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.suny.edu/Student/campuses_sector_intro.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.suny.edu/Student/campuses_sector_intro.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

33

<p>Purchase is only one school out of 64 SUNY institiutions. It has 4,000 students out of the 413,000 students enrolled in SUNY programs. True, if every (or most) SUNY schools were the level of Purchase we might be on to somthing, but that is no where near the case.</p>

<p>In fact the SUNY strength as I see it is the community colleges. They are amazing places, offering good educations to not only marginal kids, but, perhaps more importantly, hard-working adults re-training or improving skills, highly qualified immigrants and other first generation college students who simply can't afford a 4-year school, 4-year students adding on courses over the summer, and accelerated high school or home schooled students. Not to mention kids who simply want to be trained in a skill and don't want to go the full-curriculum route of the 4-year schools.</p>

34

<p>NYS has more than it's share of great privates: Bard, Barnard, Colgate, Columbia, Cooper Union, Cornell, RPI and UR to mention a few. The SUNY system needs at least one school at least somewhat close to these. I think that would go a long way towards improving the reputation of the system. It might even give some of the more average students at some of the more average SUNY's, a level of pride. Right now, very few people seem to have pride or satisfaction with the system.</p>

<p>I'm not sure about Hofstra either. There are some other expensive instate alternatives such as Adelphi and CW Post. I'm not sure they are much better or worth the cost, but at least they are not in some little snowbelt town.</p>

35

<p>As a product of a SUNY in a little snowbelt town, I don't think that's the issue. In fact, we all loved the snow - and we all still tell fun tales about it. How many of you have gone to bed with no snow on the ground, and awakened to find only the antenna of your car visible??? (Yes, back when there were protruding antennas!)</p>

<p>By the way, those little snowbelt towns never close down for snow ... they are waaaay used to it. And I'm sure there's a lot of snow in Hanover, Middlebury and other remote homes of super colleges.</p>

<p>I guess the weather may be more of an issue for those who are used to a warm climate. My SUNY education provided me with everything I needed at a very small price tag (dare I say about $3,000/year which included spending money and books back in the '70s.) It is still very affordable in today's market, and many Vals, Sals and top students choose Binghamton because they'd rather spend the money on grad/med/law school. This said, if finances are not an issue, or if one qualifies for aid, there may be "better" alternatives for some students - either within NYS or outside of the state. Most high achieving NYS students (at least from the "downstate" area) don't choose SUNY for any reason other than finances.</p>

<p>And, I do agree, that few Vassar students opt to remain in Poughkeepsie. But I bet a lot of them do settle in the NYC area.</p>

36

<p>Don't forget Rochester Institute of Technology on the list of great private higher ed. schools in upstate New York. What is needed are employers (rather than "exployers") to keep career oriented grads in the area. As twinmom pointed out, some folks love the cold weather and snow and view it as a plus.</p>

<p>Yes, perhaps it would be another great plus for the SUNY system to have a prestigious flagship U but that is just not the way the system is set up. SUNY's drawbacks and victories - that also involve its tremendous expansion with an annual budget operation of billions, have to be understood in the context of all the other higher ed. options available in New York State. This is one reason why the SUNY network of community colleges and programs in continuing education are so important and vital to the system and underscores just how the SUNY institutions serve New York and New Yorkers. </p>

<p>Part of the problems that now plague the system that edad and others have noted are part of its piecemeal history. The SUNY system didn't even exist until 1948 - which makes it the youngest of the state university systems in the U.S. - and up until the late 60s, when Nelson Rockefeller stepped in, the system simply did not compete with the states' private colleges and universities. One of the reasons that SUNY Purchase stands out as a "jewel in the SUNY crown" so to speak, is simply because that was what it was intended to be right from the start. It was started from scratch in 1967 with the intention to foster excellence in the performing and liberal arts. Purchase has changed a great deal since the late sixties and early seventies but, then again, so have New York and New Yorkers.</p>

37

<p>That article is a pack of damned lies!</p>

<p>Everyone knows that the hotspot is wherever I'm at! And since I'm currently in Karatsu, Japan... that's where it's at, baby!</p>

<p>:D</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The SUNY system needs at least one school at least somewhat close to these.

[/quote]
SUNY currently funds three undergraduate colleges at Cornell.</p>

39

<p>Not to forget graduate level programs as well. For the complete list of SUNY programs check out the link below.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/about/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/about/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.cals.cornell.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cals.cornell.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.suny.edu/Student/campuses_complete_list.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.suny.edu/Student/campuses_complete_list.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

40

<p>edad: It would be interesting to stroll on over to the Musical Theater sub-forum and get those people's impressions of your comments. I lurk there a bit because I've got a daughter who is interested in theater & dance.</p>

<p>the impression I have, from reading the various posts there is that, in the performing arts, SUNY Purchase is no weak sister. It is a very highly regarded program, turning out numerous professional dancers and other performers.</p>

<p>NYU Tisch seems to be anything but weak in these areas as well.</p>

<p>My understanding is the aceptance rates for these programs is below 10%.</p>